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scottf3334 Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2006 Posts: 205 Location: Davenport, FL
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: Vanagon vs Toyota van |
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I have searched here and on google, but haven't found the information. Does anyone have a picture of a Vanagon next to a Toyota van of the same era? To compare size and styling.
A friend of mine was saying how the Toyota has a real 4WD system, less expensive to maintain, better gas mileage, and about he same amount of room. For far less money (than a syncro).
I had a Toyota van about 10 yrs ago, honestly, I can't really remember that much about it. I drove it for a year, gave it to my mom who drove it about 2 years. She gave it to my brother who left it in d2 at 70mph and blew it up. _________________ 84 Westy
78 Super vert
87 Westy Zetec |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:28 am Post subject: |
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> A friend of mine was saying
please provide specific model info on the vehicle he is describing
fwiw, NO toyota van comes with a westfalia pop top and kitchen..
there is an AWD Previa, it has no lockers
there is also this model, I dont know what its called
http://www.ultimateyota.com/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=26&topic=4728.msg44999
It is smaller than a Vanagon, and has none of the cool factor of a westfalia camper.. Im not sure what the drive system is like, whether it has lockers or is just AWD |
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Love My Westy Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 1835
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: |
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That model of Toyota van was not the same size as a Vanagon. It was smaller. It was actualy built on a small truck chassis and had the engine under the drivers seat. There are a few still around, but I don't see many of them. I don't think they were available as a camper like the Westy's. There may be a site on the web for people who fix them up.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/3414/1661/21033330012_large.jpg
Rich |
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WestyBob Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004 Posts: 2346 Location: Portland, Oregon
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon vs Toyota van |
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scottf3334 wrote: |
I have searched here and on google, but haven't found the information. Does anyone have a picture of a Vanagon next to a Toyota van of the same era? To compare size and styling.
A friend of mine was saying how the Toyota has a real 4WD system, less expensive to maintain, better gas mileage, and about he same amount of room. For far less money (than a syncro). |
I owned an '89 Toyota 4wd van for ten years. Excellent quality although it was a 4wd and not an AWD which is closer to the syncros. I never had to do anything to it other than routine maintenance like oil and filter changes.
But .... it was smaller (much narrower) than a vanagon, the front seats were not as comfortable and most importantly it didn't have any karma to the feel of driving. And there were no real camper models unless one did some converting.
However, overall I'd say it was functional like the vanagon. After ten years the exterior was beginning to go to seed much like a vanagon unless care was applied. |
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Brungeman Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2010 Posts: 187 Location: Pittsburgh
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Like was said, I am not sure there is a direct comparison between the two! they are very unique vehicles and the only real similarity is the ugly styling that we love.
I also would toss the Mitsu. Delica into the mix of vehicles that are similar but nothing alike. It is not a US vehicle but I have seen quite a few in Canada.
If I could get one registered in the US it would be a vehicle I would dig having. (not sure what it would take to get it legal, then again what would I do for parts?) |
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scottf3334 Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2006 Posts: 205 Location: Davenport, FL
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Yes, that is the one. I think they were just called vans, not the Previa. They were made during the same era as Vanagons. Early 80's to early 90's
I'm not planning on getting rid of my westy either. Just thought it was interesting discussion. I really like the 80's styling. I even had a Vixen RV when I tried to kick the VW habit. (Loved it, but you think VW's require constant tinkering )
I've never had a syncro, so I don't know how that system works or why it is better or worse than a traditional system _________________ 84 Westy
78 Super vert
87 Westy Zetec |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: |
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> I've never had a syncro, so I don't know how that system works or why it is better or worse than a traditional system
A syncro uses a viscous coupling, think hydraulic clutch, to send power to the front wheels, depending on whether the rear wheels slip.. Think of it as a user transparent All Wheel Drive system (no user input required, works same as a Subaru). The viscous coupling does bind when parking, there is turning resistance you do not get in a 2wd.. Some people add a manual decoupler to eliminate this problem, but it is expensive, and not a stock configuration.
Some syncros also came with a rear air locker, what you would call "traditional" 4WD. It locks the rear axle so both wheels turn at the same speed. This is only useful offroad, not good for snow. And if somebody forgets to turn it off on pavement, you can destroy your transmission.. There is no need to get out of the van to lock the hubs, its controlled by a button on the dash.
Some people with decoupler swap out the VC for a solid shaft. This is for offroad use only. It can be used on pavement if you dont make a lot of turns, but can potentially risk transmission damage.. This is true 4wd in that the front receives equal power as the rear when engaged. A viscous coupling only sends some power to the front, less than to the rear.
Lastly a very few people have front lockers on a syncro, useful only offroad, and if somebody pulls that button on pavement, turning becomes extremely difficult, and the likelyhood of transmission damage is very high..
if you are not a serious offroader, or primarily need snow performace, a syncro with a viscous coupling and no locker is sufficient.. this is AWD, not true 4WD |
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D Clymer Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005 Posts: 2978 Location: Issaquah, WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:16 am Post subject: |
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The 4wd Toyota van is a cool vehicle, but it is nothing like a Vanagon in terms of usable interior space. The floor to ceiling height is a lot less, and the engine hump between the seats makes front to rear movement impossible.
Still, the manual trans vans have the 4wd system out of the Toyota trucks. They have a full low range transfer case. The automatic ones have a different system. It's worth noting too that a Toyota van has an 88" wheelbase - 9" shorter than a Vanagon. That compromises highway stability somewhat and creates an even longer front overhang than the Vanagon has. Not a good thing for offroad.
If you don't need all the interior space of a Vanagon or the better road manners of a Vanagon, the Toyota does make an interesting buy. They seem to have good Toyota reliability too.
David |
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campism Samba Member
Joined: September 07, 2007 Posts: 4485 Location: Richmond VA
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: |
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I knew a fellow who owned a 4WD version of the Toyota panel van and he liked it, and I saw in Victoria BC a highroof camperized version of the 2WD called the Getaway Van. I suppose that somewhere there must be camperized 4WD versions also. I did find a 4WD conversion van (plush interior, slightly higher roof and bigger side windows) in my favorite junkyard years ago. |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7893 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:31 am Post subject: |
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Quick specs...
1988 Toyota "MasterAce" Van LE 4WD
Original MSRP: $17,328
Standard Engine : 2.2L I4
Horsepower: 101
Torque (lb-ft): 133
4-Speed Automatic Overdrive: Opt.
5-Speed Manual Overdrive: Std.
City (mpg): 20
Highway (mpg): 22
MSN user rating: 7.4
More info at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Van
It has no Fahrvernugen, no soul, no world-wide icon status, blatant copying of the Vanagon, no optional room for 4 to sleep, rock-bottom re-sale value (one above is an '88 for $1795, price was reduced), mechanically reliable.
1991 Volkswagen Vanagon Syncro
Original MSRP: $18,670
Standard Engine 2.1L I4
Horsepower: 90
Torque (lb-ft): 117
4-Speed Manual AWD: Std.
City (mpg): 16
Highway (mpg): 16
MSN user rating: 8.4
More info: all over the Web, but the Wiki page is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2_%28T3%29 .
It has the complete opposite qualities of a Toyota. But, hey, some folks are VW people, some are Toyota people.
Something interesting to note: "Another version of the (Dodge) Caravan was the camper. The camper wasn't very popular and dropped within 2 years." _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon vs Toyota van |
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scottf3334 wrote: |
...I had a Toyota van about 10 yrs ago, honestly, I can't really remember that much about it... |
I submit -- if you had had a VW van 10 yrs ago you would still remember everything about it (good & bad).
Not a ride that is easily forgotten. |
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Chris in Santa Cruz, CA Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2010 Posts: 178 Location: See name
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I've had a 1994 Toyota Previa 4wd and I still have a 1996 2wd Previa with 212K miles on it and I've owned numerous buses and now an AC Vanagon.
I am a huge fan of Toyota Previa's and think from a design standpoint they were one of the best ever made. Mid engine and rear wheel drive. The engine is a 2.2l bullet proof in line four with 115 HP. Its on its side under the front seats and the floor is flat all the way back and you can put a sheet of plywood on the floor with the seats out. Lots of room.
They were designed with the Japanese workmen and delivery companies in mind with a way oversize cooling system and a 6 quart sump with remote 2 liter reserve tank and automatic top up. Because of the rear wheel drive its turning radius is minute (4wd is not much worse).
It gets 21mpg in real life and the automatic is essentially a six speed with four gears that slip and then it will electronically lock 3rd and 4th. It is amazingly stable in any kind of wind. Lots of work went into the aero. With the second A/C unit for the back it cools the inside very well.
With all that said though the 4wd system is not as good as the Synchro and if you have a Vanagon with at least the convertible bed in the back then the Vanagon is far better for camping. It also has more room, feels more open and is more fun!
You can find used Previa's with a little over 100K on them for 3-5K.
I am driving with my sons in two weeks up to the San Juan islands and if I wanted to go up Hwy 1 and then 101 up the coast and camp then the Vanagon would work. But blasting up Hwy 5 in the central valley with heat and headwinds the Previa is the hands down winner. 75-80 MPH no matter what the wind, with the A/C on and the temp gauge never budges from the middle of the dial. Take the back seats out and you can load bikes in it no problem. I cursed my 76 westy on numerous occasions trying to load bikes. _________________ current:Bugatti Type 35 kit car (74 beetle), 1972 Thing
previous: 1965 1500 Variant S (first car), 1976 Westfalia, 1978 Bus, 1982 Vanagon |
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Classicvibe Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2009 Posts: 743 Location: Salt Lake City
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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I test drove many of the Toyota vans before buying my Syncro. Here is the dealio:
The Toyota van was made from like, umm, I forget, but '82 is an important year for some reason, and up to 1989. Actually, not "made" - but that is how long they were imported to the US. The US model import then became the Sienna, but the traditional model continued in production and export to other countries. Look at some of the ACE models in the UK (MasterAce/townace for example) and get ready to totally druel. Skylight windows stolen straight from a 21-23 window vw, diesel and turbo diesel, captain chairs in the middle row. Here is one I just found that is a typical (but older) example:
As you can see, the hubs are lockable. They had another system as well that was on the fly. The primo years are the '87-89 LE models (here in the US). There are importers in Canada, but that is all such a mess, holy crap. Outback imports is one of them, have a look at their site.
Driving, the T-van is more together, like this slick little suppository. Compared to my van, it makes very little noise, it like to cruise at 75, gets way better gas mileage, and is pretty easy to work on. It is a mid-engine which is really awesome (RWD). The interior space is just smaller all around. Great for a single dude, but just does not work well as a camper IMHO. I have seen some hack job pop tops, but no good ones, and nothing stock.
The entry price is great as well. I could find a cherry 1989 that was maybe $4-$6k. I am not a big fan of the screwy short wheelbase, the dash is junky looking, and although I don't use my AWD system, I still never liked the T-van 4x4 (not AWD). People have tried to convert them to campers over the years and it just looks horrible.
There are a bunch of other similar looking models in asia and other places, like the HIACE. They are on a different platform altogether (I think).
The versatility of the Vanagon is what finally sold me. It seemed easier to work on, and I did not have space concerns. As far as performance, you can look on youtube to find some people pounding the Toyota vans on the trails. I was not that impressed, but generally speaking, they are just as off-road ready off the line as a Syncro, and this is one place where the shorter wheel base is helpful.
Link
_________________ On a mission, the destination is just an excuse.
Syncro Solstice 2022...see you there!
1986.5 Wolfsburg Syncro Westfalia Poptop Weekender Transporter |
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82WestyMan Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2006 Posts: 1098 Location: Western OR
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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when you get right down to it... "it's apples and oranges" _________________ "The floggings will continue until morale improves"
"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell" - Harry S. Truman
82 Westfalia - w/ a Raby 'Camper Special' engine |
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vweggie Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2007 Posts: 219 Location: End of the road, Vancouver Island
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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While traveling around Australia and SE Asia I became a big fan of the Toyota HiAce. I wanted to buy one when I got back here but they weren't available so I got a VW. They are available in Canada now but do I want one? I don't think so, they don't have as much interior space as a VW and will not be as good offroad. If I was strictly a pavement driver I'd probably go for one though.
link to HiAce camper : http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/rds/ctd/1933271393.html _________________ 1990 Multivan 2.1 AT
Last edited by vweggie on Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kevtherev Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2007 Posts: 897 Location: the 51st state
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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82WestyMan wrote: |
when you get right down to it... "it's apples and oranges" |
it is indeed.. well said |
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Syncroincity Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 1557 Location: New York City
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VisPacem Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2007 Posts: 1143 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon vs Toyota van |
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scottf3334 wrote: |
I have searched here and on google, but haven't found the information. Does anyone have a picture of a Vanagon next to a Toyota van of the same era? To compare size and styling.
A friend of mine was saying how the Toyota has a real 4WD system, less expensive to maintain, better gas mileage, and about he same amount of room. For far less money (than a syncro).
I had a Toyota van about 10 yrs ago, honestly, I can't really remember that much about it. I drove it for a year, gave it to my mom who drove it about 2 years. She gave it to my brother who left it in d2 at 70mph and blew it up. |
I had a Toyota van about 10 yrs ago, honestly, I can't really remember that much about it.
I guess that sums it up and ends the discussion
_________________ LG aka VisPacemPB, *The* party Pooper
No Regrets (Nothing to do with Vanagons) |
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240Gordy Samba Member
Joined: May 15, 2008 Posts: 2354 Location: Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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I rented a new Toyota Van must be almost 25 years ago, and I have not forgotten it obviously. Rented it in Vancouver on my dad's birthday and drove him and a bunch of friends to Whistler for a day of skiing. It was great. Loved it. If I could have afforded one at the time I probably would have bought one. Very nice on the highway, very maneuverable. Nice ride and very comfortable.
All that stuff about soul and what not is just foo foo dust. I love my Vanagon but it ain't no hippie wagon. _________________ Tencentlife said,
"So, now that you know what you're doing, go to town."
2010 GOLF TRENDLINE 2.5
1985 GL now with more! a 2.1L
H&R SPORT(RED) Springs FRONT , SLAM SPECIALTIES RE6 AIRBAGS REAR |
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scottf3334 Samba Member
Joined: May 26, 2006 Posts: 205 Location: Davenport, FL
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:12 am Post subject: |
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I'd like to get a picture of a Vanagon next to a Toyota van. Guess I'm going to have to start prowling parking lots with my camera. If anyone has a friend or maybe knows where one is parked, try to get some good shots
They are apples and oranges, but from the same era with some similarities. Maybe it is actually like a red delicious to a granny smith. If this was 1985 and you were in the market for a new kid hauler, would you test drive both vans?
Thats kinda why the picture would be great. Also, there don't seem to be nearly as many around. If they were so reliable, why do I see way more vanagons that everyone insits was cursed from the factory with the WBX?
Maybe the curse of the Toyota van to be seen as a Toyota. Strickly a financial thing, use it until it costs more to fix than it's worth. So is there something to that "soul" thing somewhere in the vanagons german metal? _________________ 84 Westy
78 Super vert
87 Westy Zetec |
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