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schoonerman
Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2008
Posts: 244
Location: vancouver
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 Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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I've ordered the GW stainless exhaust $700 and Frank Condelli's stainless catalytic converter $200 = $900
The above is going to be attached to a 2.2 Rocky Jennings performance engine in September......be still my beating heart 
Mike
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87 Westy/Vanagon |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Silence262 wrote: |
| Dylan, so, if I improved my intake, then I could (conceivably) see a performance improvement? Perhaps I should look into that, unless the costs are extreme. |
The intake S bellows are the greatest limiting factor in the Vanagon intake.
Bostig flow tested the entire system and each individual part.
Chris's equal length headers are a work of art and I love his work.
The point I am trying to make is that what you breath in is what can be exhaled.
IMHO, performance gains bolted on at only one end will be minimal. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Removing the Syncro dust trap for a straight through pipe, a K&N filter and oversized throttle body are the bolt on options I know of available.
Sure, plenty more can be done, but the only factual increase in power or torque will be shown on a dyno sheet 
Seat of the pants excitement over trick parts does not count. |
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desertrefugee
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2013
Posts: 476
Location: Phoenix, AZ. USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
Seat of the pants excitement over trick parts does not count. |
We are still talking about waterboxers here, right? 🚀
Although, my 2.2 is running as well as it can (pretty darned good), the Westy is grossly underpowered. I don't care! It is an efficient mill that gets the job done.
My point continues to be (and I believe InSyncro agrees) that to spend exhorbitant amounts of cash for only incremental improvement doesn't make sense. For me, climbing up to the Mogollon Rim (7000ft) at 50-55mph vs. my current 45-50mph isn't worth spending a grand or more.
I suppose if I had a busted exhaust manifold, as is the case here, I'd be tempted to lean toward aftermarket goodies, though.
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- 83.5 Westfalia - 2.2 GoWesty "power"
- a bunch of vintage motorcycles
- Numerous telescopes of various size and function
"For I have loved the stars too fondly to be fearful of the night." - Sarah Williams |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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My exact point is that without multiple dyno runs with each part that is swapped and a static baseline printout of a stock waterboxer....all "improvements" without such are purely speculation.
I own the GW exhaust and have worked with the WBXhaust...both good quality and nicely built.
Bolting them on to your existing waterboxer and thinking its power has increased by more than a few percentage is not warranted.
Chris has provided dyno sheets for his expertly built motors.
Yes a 2.2 done right has more umph than a stock 2.1, but thinking that bolting on just an exhaust and you will be feeling huge gains is not proven or a good mindset to be in.
I would purchase the exhaust the resonates with you, for whatever reason that may be. |
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Silence262
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2010
Posts: 87
Location: Rome, NY
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have modest expectations on hp gains.
If I can gain 3-5% for $700, I call it a bargain. If another few hundred on intake goodies gives another 3%, good deal. I'm only going to put one exhaust system on the van between now and end-of-life. I don't want to go cheap now and regret it later.
Gene Berg said, "Buy the best and cry once," but to all of us, the $700 price difference is substantial.
Dylan (Insyncro) has worked on my van, and I trust his opinion completely.
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Silence
"Knowledge, sir, should be free to all." - Harry Mudd
1987 GL Automatic, 16" GoWesty wheels, Full stainless exhaust. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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I dont see any issue with "modest gain".
Vroom, vroom. |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
A tuned exhaust system will only show a performance increase if it is paired with the ability of the intake to inhale at a rate different than the stock parameter.
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If the intake as-built is already holding the engine back, yes, but the displacement and/or volumetric efficiency have to increase substantially before the 2.1 intake becomes inadequate. It is actually a pretty good intake tract, whether by design or accident, with runner length providing a favorable mid-range resonance with a high-volume plenum, an already oversized throttle opening, and a decent ratio of port volume to valve opening. My testing showed the AFM and filtering systems, including the swirl-separator, cost only a few percent drop in manifold pressure. It can be made better, of course, but it's not costing much in the way of little ponies, while the stock exhaust is costing a stable-full.
Meanwhile to equate intake with exhaust the way you have ignores the basic fact that although similar processes are at play, one is at a very low energy state while the other involves kinetic forces several orders of magnitude higher. Each is handling the exact same mass of gases, but almost all the energy in the intake mass is as chemical potential, so even in a well-designed intake tract only weak atmospheric pressure and relatively low-energy resonance effects are doing any work, even if you manage to organise intake dynamics favorably. But after that potential energy is unleashed in combustion, more than a third of it is at play in the exhaust where that same mass of gases experiences an extreme increase temperature, pressure, and velocity, presenting enormous opportunities to organise all that kinetic energy to hasten gas flow and heavily influence in-cylinder pressure and intake gas movement within a chosen time frame. The fact is, in a normally-aspirated engine, well-organised exhaust pressure dynamics can have a bigger effect on intake dynamics than even a very well-designed intake tract. Once you have that, improving intake dynamics by design is just icing on the cake, but unless the intake as-built is already restrictive, the biggest gains are always to be had on the hot side. That's where the money is because that's where the energy is.
| Quote: |
Bolting them on to your existing waterboxer and thinking its power has increased by more than a few percentage is not warranted.
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A dyno is useful and even essential to verify and compare incremental gains, the changes that can win or lose a race, but above 5 or 10 percent most peoples' butt-dyno is calibrated well enough to know something has changed for the better or to the worse. I'm not saying this to make a sale, but just to point out that while being scientific is always admirable and at times essential, one can nonetheless be too doctrinaire. "More than a few percentage" is exactly where a dyno is not needed to know if a mod was worthwhile.
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Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
| A dyno is useful and even essential to verify and compare incremental gains, the changes that can win or lose a race, but above 5 or 10 percent most peoples' butt-dyno is calibrated well enough to know something has changed for the better or to the worse. |
So can I assume from your statement and all the finely tuned asses out there, that the wbx-haust offers larger than a 10% gain?
Somewhere between 5 -10% gain?
Slippery slope, I know, especially when selling products in Vanagonland.
S&S marched right down this road years ago and advertised "gains".
We all know where they are.
I am in no way comparing S&S with Vanistan, more poking fun.
My last wbx would have Chris's exhaust connected to it for sure, except I purchased the GW stainless system for 20% off retail and free shipping during a sale.
It just made sense for me at that time.
If anyone feels I am out of line, well sorry folks.
I have and still support Chris and RMW with all of the work they are doing.
And no I do not receive any kickbacks or free stuff from either of them for promoting products the sell. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: January 03, 2010
Posts: 297
Location: Amesbury, MA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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The SS exhaust was great, it did add performance at an extremely affordable cost, reflected in materials which equaled a poor shelf life, boy was it easy to put on..
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2001 eurovn weekender 207k fresh batteries |
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kirkvw72
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2006
Posts: 272
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Sam- Are you saying your WBXaustSS from RMW failed? Are you no longer running it? Or did you have a different stainless exhaust?
_________________
2015 VW GTi Autobahn
2000 Mercedes Benz E430
1992 Miata, automatic converted to a 5-speed
1988 Vanagon Wolfsburg
1987 Porsche 944 (951) Turbo
1987 Vanagon GL, Rocky Jennings Heads, RMW Exhaust, ASL 5-speed, AMG Wheels
1981 Porsche 924 (931) Turbo
1972 Beetle (standard) |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| The SS exhaust was great, it did add performance at an extremely affordable cost, reflected in materials which equaled a poor shelf life, boy was it easy to put on.. |
I bought that system and installed it six times total as it failed within a year and kept failing.
I would send it back, get another, same deal.
7th time....Chapter 11.
It did not give any performance improvements IMHO.
If it did, once cracked, any gains are null and void.
FYI, I still have the last brand new set they sent me bolted to my shop wall unused....it has rusted just hanging there  |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Absent ampersands
can cause confusion.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkvw72 wrote: |
| Sam- Are you saying your WBXaustSS from RMW failed? Are you no longer running it? Or did you have a different stainless exhaust? |
NO...S&S offered a $200 thin walled mild steel header years ago.
It would crack with just a few miles and heat cycles.
It had no supports and junction of the pipes was not welded well.
BUT people loved them because the price was right.
Go figure. |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
Absent ampersands
can cause confusion. |
You win.
S&S
S and S
S+S
Not ss as in stainless steel.
Always a pleasure to rub elbows with a pro. |
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photogdave
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2004
Posts: 3053
Location: Vancouver Island, B.C.
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kirkvw72
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2006
Posts: 272
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| kirkvw72 wrote: |
| Sam- Are you saying your WBXaustSS from RMW failed? Are you no longer running it? Or did you have a different stainless exhaust? |
NO...S&S offered a $200 thin walled mild steel header years ago.
It would crack with just a few miles and heat cycles.
It had no supports and junction of the pipes was not welded well.
BUT people loved them because the price was right.
Go figure. |
Got it. Thank goodness. I was prepared to start getting anxious!
_________________
2015 VW GTi Autobahn
2000 Mercedes Benz E430
1992 Miata, automatic converted to a 5-speed
1988 Vanagon Wolfsburg
1987 Porsche 944 (951) Turbo
1987 Vanagon GL, Rocky Jennings Heads, RMW Exhaust, ASL 5-speed, AMG Wheels
1981 Porsche 924 (931) Turbo
1972 Beetle (standard) |
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insyncro
Banned
Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 15086
Location: New York
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| kirkvw72 wrote: |
| Got it. Thank goodness. I was prepared to start getting anxious! |
Change your fuel lines, rails and bulkhead spigot |
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kirkvw72
Samba Member
Joined: March 27, 2006
Posts: 272
Location: Hoffman Estates, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| insyncro wrote: |
| kirkvw72 wrote: |
| Got it. Thank goodness. I was prepared to start getting anxious! |
Change your fuel lines, rails and bulkhead spigot |
1)Done - 2)need to upgrade to metal - 3)upgraded to metal.
_________________
2015 VW GTi Autobahn
2000 Mercedes Benz E430
1992 Miata, automatic converted to a 5-speed
1988 Vanagon Wolfsburg
1987 Porsche 944 (951) Turbo
1987 Vanagon GL, Rocky Jennings Heads, RMW Exhaust, ASL 5-speed, AMG Wheels
1981 Porsche 924 (931) Turbo
1972 Beetle (standard) |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| photogdave wrote: |
| tencentlife wrote: |
Absent ampersands
can cause confusion. |
Alliterative answer almost
made a Haiku
pure Vanagon poetry |
You win this round Dave. Cheers!
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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