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Altema Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2010 Posts: 2903 Location: Lower Michigan
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I love cutaways, thanks a million!
Now I see why I get heat by the time I get to the end of the block. It would great if anyone had a cutaway of the performance version...
Paul |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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It's just a bare J tube inside the heater box. Works great for those cold SoCal winters! _________________
Mitey62 wrote: |
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7375
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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The hi po heater boxes (the 1 1/2", and Berg and CSP 1 5/8" and CSP 1 5/8") are all just j tubes as stated above.
If you look at Jimmys photo that is a stock German heater box with 8 fins per side and inside the heat sink it forms that shapre for more surface area for the heat.
Danask also makes a stock heater box but if you peer inside you will only see 4 fins per side-this one is a j tube all the way through but still stock size on the pipe. |
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craigman Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004 Posts: 2397 Location: redding
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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That pic really shows how restrictive a stock heater box is! |
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DarthWeber Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2007 Posts: 7543 Location: Whittier,CA
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Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is a bad idea because it would be hideously expensive and probably just wouldn't work but what if you Extrude Honed the stock heater boxes? Would it remove enough from the inside and smooth it enough to work better with larger motors and bigger valves? Just wondering. _________________
Mitey62 wrote: |
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on. |
RockCrusher wrote: |
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. |
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bajababy Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2009 Posts: 21 Location: BLUE SPRINGS
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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one question? why are you using stock lenght rods for a 82mm strock? why not 5.6's or 5.7's. their would be less frictoin (heat) with the longer rods and you would have a better power out put.
derluftwagen wrote: |
2275cc
82mm Scat Forged 4340
94mm Mahle B
5.5 Eagle H beam rods
Engle 100 cam
12lb flywheel
VW 041 heads 39x32
36mm Dellortos
1 3/8 header
8:1 compression
I was going to install 37.5 exhaust but since they were NOS heads I will wait till they need a rebuild.
Ive heard this will be a tractor engine and wont be fun to drive. |
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nobuggybob Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2008 Posts: 415 Location: Monument Co.
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Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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I just went through this same thing! I'm building a 2176 turbo with 044s and wanted heat (colorado) gave up on the stock boxes and went with the 1-1/2" ones and a header from Kymco. will let you know how it works soon _________________ You Can't Quit Poverty |
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Arnolds64 Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 724
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Posted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: Heater Boxes |
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nobuggybob wrote: |
I just went through this same thing! I'm building a 2176 turbo with 044s and wanted heat (colorado) gave up on the stock boxes and went with the 1-1/2" ones and a header from Kymco. will let you know how it works soon |
I have been running the 1 1/2 tubed heater box with a merged header. These I think are custom in that someone welded some of the fins to them. I live in KC MO and they work well. Had some other cheapy's before without fins and they worked good. Make sure it is all sealed well and then do the Barneys deal where you put marine head fans under your seats for a draw through system that works great. No freezing at idle. Engine specs in sig below _________________ 64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels. |
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Bruce Amacker Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007 Posts: 1786 Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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[email protected] wrote: |
Just a question, but why would you spend all that money, build a really nice engine and put 041 heads on it? The best way I can explain it is like a fireman trying to put out a fire using all his super fancy and expensive equipment on his truck, but having the water come out a hole the size of a penny. I built a similar engine jut to see what the effects are and they are night and day. I went from stock ported heads with 40 X 35.5 valves to ported and polished Mofoco 050's with 42 x 37.5 valves and it was like I was driving a completely different car. Honestly, when people call and want to buy 041's, I tell them it's a complete waste of time and money. Either stay stock or go for our 042's...... just my .02
Ive heard this will be a tractor engine and wont be fun to drive. |
Originally I purchased parts to build a fast street engine for my vert.
Originally the build was as follows.
Scat 82mm crank
Mahle 94mm B
5.4 H beams
Engle 125
Fumio 40X35 heads
1 5/8 header
48 IDAs
9.5:1
That was when I was young, single and more balls than brains. Dont get me wrong, all the parts are still going on the vert just in a 1915!
Berg CW 69mm
mahle 94mm A
engle 125
fumio heads
1 5/8
IDAs
10:1
4.37 r&p
welded close ratio 3/4
threaded super diff
disk brakes
But since I got married we camp in the bus a lot and I decided to detune the 2.2 and built for MASSIVE torque so I can haul all the camping gear up and down donner pass. Plus living in NorCal now I would like heat or at least defrost for the rainy winters. I didnt want to rev to the moon so the small cam, heads, carbs and exhaust were chosen from the parts stash.
In my experience you can get more power out of the TI if you rev it up, but the more revs the shorter the engine life. Someone mentioned a tractor engine, if you have ever driven a bus with stock RGB then you already know it is geared like a tractor so why not build an engine to suit? If I was building this engine for a lightweight type I the combo would be different.
bajababy wrote: |
one question? why are you using stock lenght rods for a 82mm strock? why not 5.6's or 5.7's. their would be less frictoin (heat) with the longer rods and you would have a better power out put.
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What are you talking about? Stock length rods are 5.4. Have you ever built an engine using 82 crank and 5.7 rods? I would prefer not to cut my engine compartment out just to put the engine in! 5.5 is the max I will go in a street engine.
Bruce Amacker wrote: |
2180, stock heater boxes, 4-into-1 Empi header, custom muffler, built for torque with a single deuce, rarely sees 5 grand, great heat, runs terrific! |
What are the specs for your build?
I know this so far
82
92
044s
E110
1 3/8 header
Zenith
What size valves, ported?
Compression?
Ignition?
I would love to know what your head temps are as well!
This thread had a lot of good info. Thanks for suggesting it.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=393153
modok wrote: |
Honestly the "wall" you hit in fourth is probably a shortage of exhaust flow.
I ran your combo on my simulator and it agrees.
High ratio rockers will only help a little, they do some good on the intake but the exhaust valve allready has plenty of lift. What WILL help is more duration, opening the exhaust valve sooner and closing it later moves the wall up to a higher rpm. An engle 110 might get you another 500 rpm and more power overall.
I understand what you mean about how cam duration is not directly related to displacement. I used to think the same way myself. But duration IS a way to adjust things. A stock exhaust valve will be adequate to run a 1600 to 6K, a 1914 to 5k, a 2110 to 4500! |
So it looks like a stock exhaust valve will only flow to 4000 in a 2.2.
At 4000 rpm with big nut boxes, .82 4th, 26.5 tire I will be at 80mph. I do not want to be driving a loaded down bus, stock height with roof rack and stock brakes at 80mph. Knowing it can pull to 80 for passing is helpful.
The main reason for the use of the E100 was the static compression. Was planning to run high 7s/low 8s to help keep the heat down and thought that might be too low for a 110. I would like to keep a tight deck as well so combustion chamber work will definitely be happening. With the large beefier casting the 041 has large chambers are possible without fear of being too thin.
Which chamber design is best for exhaust flow?
So it looks like if you rev past your engines "governor" (exhaust valve in my case) you build heat not power. If you keep your engine in it most efficient rpm range (torque peak) and keep within the heads "flow range" will you still build heat?
As far as the heater boxes I might just build my own and keep the stock boxes for the 1600 in the bug.
Ive sold a few sets of the "performance boxes" and for a defroster in socal they MIGHT work.
I would just mount a gas heater but the dual carbs wont let me. Anyone mount a gas heater under a bus?
Looks like the ole 1 1/2 merged S&S is going back into service. 21 years and counting! They dont make em like they used to. |
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Bruce Amacker Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007 Posts: 1786 Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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derluftwagen wrote: |
What are the specs for your build?
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VW 2180 Engine:
Application:
Weekend warrior, ’69 Ghia coupe, fully restored, bone stock
Fuel economy- NA
Goal: strong mid range torque, relatively stock appearance, reliability/longevity
Driver type: no hard launches, no power shifts, 4500-5000rpm redline, mostly city driving 2-3000 miles per year, occasional highway driving
Engine:
Builder: Tom Simpson, Simpson Racing Engines, Wooster, Ohio
Aluminum Empi case, opened for 94’s (thick wall A&A use 94 case openings)
Case ventilated internally for better crankcase breathing between cylinders
Thick wall cylinders, 92mm AA brand thick walls PN VW9200T1MS
82mm Super Race Crankshaft E4340 Chromoly forging, CB PN 1154
Rods: CB Unitech 5.4” 5/16” bolts
Bearings: All German Kolbenschmidt
Balanced: rods end for end, crank, flywheel, (pistons separately)
Cam – W110 Engle clearanced on a lathe
Lifters: Scat with lube passages
Stock style bevel gear drive, not straight gear drive, stock crank gear
Heads: Cylinder Heads - 044 Super Mag CNC Round Port 40x35.5 CB PN1398
Head machine work: Tom Simpson
Combustion chambers unshrouded around valves
3 angle grind
Ports sanded lightly to remove CNC porting marks
Area under valves smoothed to allow better flow into chambers
Lighter (stock style) valve springs installed on heads due to bevel gear drive to reduce chance of thrust issues
Stock rockers with solid shafts
CB moly stud kit
CB case hardware kit
Compression ratio: 8.1:1
Carbueration: center two barrel, 32NDIX
Carbueration: Stock heat riser on intake manifold
Carbueration issues: Must use stock air cleaner with air horn adapter (homemade).
Distributor: Pertronix cast
Ignition: Stock Bosch Blue coil, stock wires
Crankcase ventilation system: stock, with stock oil bath air cleaner
Oil pump: CB # 1791 Maxi Pump 2 pump Mann filter combination,
Oil sump: stock.
Stock doghouse oil cooler/fan/shroud/pulleys
Type 4 oil cooler, velocity ring on fan shroud inlet
Flywheel: not lightened 8 dowel, HD gland nut
Clutch Kennedy 1700lb PP
Heater boxes: stock present
Pulley/rear seal: Stock size pulley, no sand seal.
Exhaust: Empi 3312 4 into 1, 1.5" primaries, homemade Magnaflow exhaust with 2.5" inlet and outlet
Exhaust: Heat riser enabled
Additional gauges: Gauges under rear seat: Voltmeter, oil pressure and mechanical oil temp. Temp sender mounted in Type 3 dipstick adapter plate on RR of engine in sump.
Stock trans (4:12, .89), axles, 165SR15 Michelin tires _________________ '66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah you have it about right, 4000 rpm or a bit less is probably a good limit to expect.
One way to cheat with the cam is to retard it a bit. Usually on small motors or with big heads you want to run 3 to 5 advanced.
(so if cam has a 108 lobe seperation, the intake is on 103 to 105 lc)
Engle aims for 3 advance as ground I believe, in your shoes I might try setting it up right on the split, no advance.
Those extra few degrees the exhaust valve will be open after the piston comes up could make an actual difference if you do build it. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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what does the advancing or retarding do to the engine. Move the power around (up or down), add more power, allow more advance??
Will these changes still be noticable with the restrictive exhaust valve??
BTW, is it the valve itself or the size of the port that is the restriction? |
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modok Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009 Posts: 26743 Location: Colorado Springs
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Posted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Probably the valve and valve seat is the restriction.
Valve seat id is only bout 28mm, and don't forget the stem takes up a bit of space too.
Retarding the cam does generally move the power up, mostly because you then close the intake valve later, but in this case I'm thinking more about what happens at TDC.
Think about it......... If there is plenty of exhaust flow you can open the intake valve sooner and close the exhaust sooner no problem.
But if exhaust flow is marginal leaving the exhaust valve open as long as possible and having it farther open at TDC could help a lot, and there is no point in opening the intake extra early either.
ALSO, retarding the cam opens the exhaust later.........this is not what we want, but it makes the least difference, won't hurt as much as the extra lift at TDC will help.
Make sense? |
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storm Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2008 Posts: 298 Location: Juneau, Wisconsin
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:12 am Post subject: to 74 thing |
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yes you are right, there are 1 1/2 id pipes in a heat exchanger. Have them up here in Winconsin, I like some heat before I put the bus in hibernation. I took the exchangers apart and brasez copper strips all around the J tubes. not like oringinal but better. storm _________________ always ready to learn and give advice |
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Oldbugr Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2007 Posts: 291 Location: Dusty Tucson
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Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:17 am Post subject: |
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My 2 cents, I'm running 1 1/2' heater boxes, live in the pacific northwest, and my 63 bug has awesome heat. 2110 motor, oil temp aver 180, cht's=300-350 average. _________________ 64 Beetle |
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lonewolfe Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2010 Posts: 59 Location: San Francisco
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:50 am Post subject: Re: to 74 thing |
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storm wrote: |
yes you are right, there are 1 1/2 id pipes in a heat exchanger. Have them up here in Winconsin, I like some heat before I put the bus in hibernation. I took the exchangers apart and brasez copper strips all around the J tubes. not like oringinal but better. storm |
Hey Storm! I'm a little late to this discussion but it is relevant to the engine I'm working on. I'm building a 2017 for my 70' Type 2 Westy Tintop with PP'd 044 heads. I want to run a 1 1/2" exhaust with heater boxes. I'm in the SF Bay area and it does get chilly hear. In the summer it can be the coldest place in the country. Anyhow, I'm going to run 1 1/2" heater boxes but have not bought them yet. I am still undecided about which exhaust to run as well. Either an A1, Vintage Speed Super Flow or some other 1 1/2" merged exhaust like a Gene Berg. Anyhow, I've been thinking about modifying the heater boxes to get more surface to heat. Do you have any pictures of your heater boxes after adding the copper strips? _________________ If you hear these words then get out of the way, "Hey Ya'll, Watch this!!!". |
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Arnolds64 Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 724
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: The problem with boxes. |
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The biggest problem is the pressure that the heater system can produce. I had the aftermarket no finned cheap 1 3/8 boxes before. I also ran the Turbo fans under the seats ( Really Marine head fans) With them installed it was nice and toasty. It is the same as the Barney's set up in Hot VW's mag.
I would definitely do this if I had a Bus mounting them some where in the loop. If you can't run the finned boxes like stock then this might help at least getting the heat to the front better as a trade off? _________________ 64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels. |
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Arnolds64 Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2004 Posts: 724
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: to 74 thing |
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lonewolfe wrote: |
storm wrote: |
yes you are right, there are 1 1/2 id pipes in a heat exchanger. Have them up here in Winconsin, I like some heat before I put the bus in hibernation. I took the exchangers apart and brasez copper strips all around the J tubes. not like oringinal but better. storm |
Hey Storm! I'm a little late to this discussion but it is relevant to the engine I'm working on. I'm building a 2017 for my 70' Type 2 Westy Tintop with PP'd 044 heads. I want to run a 1 1/2" exhaust with heater boxes. I'm in the SF Bay area and it does get chilly hear. In the summer it can be the coldest place in the country. Anyhow, I'm going to run 1 1/2" heater boxes but have not bought them yet. I am still undecided about which exhaust to run as well. Either an A1, Vintage Speed Super Flow or some other 1 1/2" merged exhaust like a Gene Berg. Anyhow, I've been thinking about modifying the heater boxes to get more surface to heat. Do you have any pictures of your heater boxes after adding the copper strips? |
My Boxes are I think are custom made. Bought then used from a guy that bought them second and have no idea what they are. All I can tell you is that they are big tube 1 1/2 and someone welded the fins onto the tubes that look to be from some stock boxes. I was told that Berg built something like this at one time? They work very well as you can imagine and with the booster fans mentioned in my last reply here it is very good. Someone had to have opened a stock set and put this together. What is unusual is that the #1 tube once it makes it way out of the box and into the header it make a 45 degree turn with a flange that bolts to the header. The other side #3 is straight like the normal one. Do they turn on a Bus like that or something? It really does not need to. _________________ 64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels. |
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74 Thing Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004 Posts: 7375
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