Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Stroker engine and stock heater boxes, anyone running them??
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Altema
Samba Member


Joined: June 20, 2010
Posts: 2903
Location: Lower Michigan
Altema is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love cutaways, thanks a million!
Now I see why I get heat by the time I get to the end of the block. It would great if anyone had a cutaway of the performance version...

Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DarthWeber
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
DarthWeber is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just a bare J tube inside the heater box. Works great for those cold SoCal winters!
_________________
Mitey62 wrote:
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on.

RockCrusher wrote:
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7375

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hi po heater boxes (the 1 1/2", and Berg and CSP 1 5/8" and CSP 1 5/8") are all just j tubes as stated above.

If you look at Jimmys photo that is a stock German heater box with 8 fins per side and inside the heat sink it forms that shapre for more surface area for the heat.

Danask also makes a stock heater box but if you peer inside you will only see 4 fins per side-this one is a j tube all the way through but still stock size on the pipe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
craigman
Samba Member


Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 2397
Location: redding
craigman is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That pic really shows how restrictive a stock heater box is!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DarthWeber
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2007
Posts: 7543
Location: Whittier,CA
DarthWeber is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a bad idea because it would be hideously expensive and probably just wouldn't work but what if you Extrude Honed the stock heater boxes? Would it remove enough from the inside and smooth it enough to work better with larger motors and bigger valves? Just wondering.
_________________
Mitey62 wrote:
Swapped the Compufire for a Bosch blue and some points I had sitting around, started 1st crank. Took her out for a drive, pulls harder, more RPM, and runs smoother. I think I'll be sticking with points from now on.

RockCrusher wrote:
JB weld the case halves....that'll keep the fretting to a minimum. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bajababy
Samba Member


Joined: August 29, 2009
Posts: 21
Location: BLUE SPRINGS
bajababy is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one question? why are you using stock lenght rods for a 82mm strock? why not 5.6's or 5.7's. their would be less frictoin (heat) with the longer rods and you would have a better power out put.



derluftwagen wrote:
2275cc
82mm Scat Forged 4340
94mm Mahle B
5.5 Eagle H beam rods
Engle 100 cam
12lb flywheel
VW 041 heads 39x32
36mm Dellortos
1 3/8 header
8:1 compression

I was going to install 37.5 exhaust but since they were NOS heads I will wait till they need a rebuild.

Ive heard this will be a tractor engine and wont be fun to drive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
nobuggybob
Samba Member


Joined: October 31, 2008
Posts: 415
Location: Monument Co.
nobuggybob is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just went through this same thing! I'm building a 2176 turbo with 044s and wanted heat (colorado) gave up on the stock boxes and went with the 1-1/2" ones and a header from Kymco. will let you know how it works soon
_________________
You Can't Quit Poverty
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Arnolds64
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 724

Arnolds64 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:30 pm    Post subject: Heater Boxes Reply with quote

nobuggybob wrote:
I just went through this same thing! I'm building a 2176 turbo with 044s and wanted heat (colorado) gave up on the stock boxes and went with the 1-1/2" ones and a header from Kymco. will let you know how it works soon


I have been running the 1 1/2 tubed heater box with a merged header. These I think are custom in that someone welded some of the fins to them. I live in KC MO and they work well. Had some other cheapy's before without fins and they worked good. Make sure it is all sealed well and then do the Barneys deal where you put marine head fans under your seats for a draw through system that works great. No freezing at idle. Engine specs in sig below
_________________
64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bruce Amacker
Samba Member


Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Bruce Amacker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2180, stock heater boxes, 4-into-1 Empi header, custom muffler, built for torque with a single deuce, rarely sees 5 grand, great heat, runs terrific!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AlteWagen
Troll


Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8498
Location: PNW
AlteWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
Just a question, but why would you spend all that money, build a really nice engine and put 041 heads on it? The best way I can explain it is like a fireman trying to put out a fire using all his super fancy and expensive equipment on his truck, but having the water come out a hole the size of a penny. I built a similar engine jut to see what the effects are and they are night and day. I went from stock ported heads with 40 X 35.5 valves to ported and polished Mofoco 050's with 42 x 37.5 valves and it was like I was driving a completely different car. Honestly, when people call and want to buy 041's, I tell them it's a complete waste of time and money. Either stay stock or go for our 042's...... just my .02
Ive heard this will be a tractor engine and wont be fun to drive.



Originally I purchased parts to build a fast street engine for my vert.

Originally the build was as follows.
Scat 82mm crank
Mahle 94mm B
5.4 H beams
Engle 125
Fumio 40X35 heads
1 5/8 header
48 IDAs
9.5:1

That was when I was young, single and more balls than brains. Dont get me wrong, all the parts are still going on the vert just in a 1915!

Berg CW 69mm
mahle 94mm A
engle 125
fumio heads
1 5/8
IDAs
10:1

4.37 r&p
welded close ratio 3/4
threaded super diff
disk brakes

But since I got married we camp in the bus a lot and I decided to detune the 2.2 and built for MASSIVE torque so I can haul all the camping gear up and down donner pass. Plus living in NorCal now I would like heat or at least defrost for the rainy winters. I didnt want to rev to the moon so the small cam, heads, carbs and exhaust were chosen from the parts stash.

In my experience you can get more power out of the TI if you rev it up, but the more revs the shorter the engine life. Someone mentioned a tractor engine, if you have ever driven a bus with stock RGB then you already know it is geared like a tractor so why not build an engine to suit? If I was building this engine for a lightweight type I the combo would be different.


bajababy wrote:
one question? why are you using stock lenght rods for a 82mm strock? why not 5.6's or 5.7's. their would be less frictoin (heat) with the longer rods and you would have a better power out put.


What are you talking about? Stock length rods are 5.4. Have you ever built an engine using 82 crank and 5.7 rods? I would prefer not to cut my engine compartment out just to put the engine in! 5.5 is the max I will go in a street engine.


Bruce Amacker wrote:
2180, stock heater boxes, 4-into-1 Empi header, custom muffler, built for torque with a single deuce, rarely sees 5 grand, great heat, runs terrific!


What are the specs for your build?
I know this so far

82
92
044s
E110
1 3/8 header
Zenith

What size valves, ported?
Compression?
Ignition?

I would love to know what your head temps are as well!



This thread had a lot of good info. Thanks for suggesting it.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=393153

modok wrote:
Honestly the "wall" you hit in fourth is probably a shortage of exhaust flow.
I ran your combo on my simulator and it agrees.
High ratio rockers will only help a little, they do some good on the intake but the exhaust valve allready has plenty of lift. What WILL help is more duration, opening the exhaust valve sooner and closing it later moves the wall up to a higher rpm. An engle 110 might get you another 500 rpm and more power overall.

I understand what you mean about how cam duration is not directly related to displacement. I used to think the same way myself. But duration IS a way to adjust things. A stock exhaust valve will be adequate to run a 1600 to 6K, a 1914 to 5k, a 2110 to 4500!


So it looks like a stock exhaust valve will only flow to 4000 in a 2.2.

At 4000 rpm with big nut boxes, .82 4th, 26.5 tire I will be at 80mph. I do not want to be driving a loaded down bus, stock height with roof rack and stock brakes at 80mph. Knowing it can pull to 80 for passing is helpful.

The main reason for the use of the E100 was the static compression. Was planning to run high 7s/low 8s to help keep the heat down and thought that might be too low for a 110. I would like to keep a tight deck as well so combustion chamber work will definitely be happening. With the large beefier casting the 041 has large chambers are possible without fear of being too thin.

Which chamber design is best for exhaust flow?

So it looks like if you rev past your engines "governor" (exhaust valve in my case) you build heat not power. If you keep your engine in it most efficient rpm range (torque peak) and keep within the heads "flow range" will you still build heat?

As far as the heater boxes I might just build my own and keep the stock boxes for the 1600 in the bug.

Ive sold a few sets of the "performance boxes" and for a defroster in socal they MIGHT work.

I would just mount a gas heater but the dual carbs wont let me. Anyone mount a gas heater under a bus?

Looks like the ole 1 1/2 merged S&S is going back into service. 21 years and counting! They dont make em like they used to.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bruce Amacker
Samba Member


Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Bruce Amacker is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

derluftwagen wrote:


What are the specs for your build?


VW 2180 Engine:

Application:
Weekend warrior, ’69 Ghia coupe, fully restored, bone stock
Fuel economy- NA
Goal: strong mid range torque, relatively stock appearance, reliability/longevity
Driver type: no hard launches, no power shifts, 4500-5000rpm redline, mostly city driving 2-3000 miles per year, occasional highway driving

Engine:
Builder: Tom Simpson, Simpson Racing Engines, Wooster, Ohio

Aluminum Empi case, opened for 94’s (thick wall A&A use 94 case openings)
Case ventilated internally for better crankcase breathing between cylinders

Thick wall cylinders, 92mm AA brand thick walls PN VW9200T1MS

82mm Super Race Crankshaft E4340 Chromoly forging, CB PN 1154

Rods: CB Unitech 5.4” 5/16” bolts
Bearings: All German Kolbenschmidt

Balanced: rods end for end, crank, flywheel, (pistons separately)

Cam – W110 Engle clearanced on a lathe
Lifters: Scat with lube passages
Stock style bevel gear drive, not straight gear drive, stock crank gear

Heads: Cylinder Heads - 044 Super Mag CNC Round Port 40x35.5 CB PN1398
Head machine work: Tom Simpson
Combustion chambers unshrouded around valves
3 angle grind
Ports sanded lightly to remove CNC porting marks
Area under valves smoothed to allow better flow into chambers
Lighter (stock style) valve springs installed on heads due to bevel gear drive to reduce chance of thrust issues

Stock rockers with solid shafts
CB moly stud kit
CB case hardware kit

Compression ratio: 8.1:1

Carbueration: center two barrel, 32NDIX
Carbueration: Stock heat riser on intake manifold
Carbueration issues: Must use stock air cleaner with air horn adapter (homemade).

Distributor: Pertronix cast

Ignition: Stock Bosch Blue coil, stock wires

Crankcase ventilation system: stock, with stock oil bath air cleaner

Oil pump: CB # 1791 Maxi Pump 2 pump Mann filter combination,
Oil sump: stock.

Stock doghouse oil cooler/fan/shroud/pulleys
Type 4 oil cooler, velocity ring on fan shroud inlet

Flywheel: not lightened 8 dowel, HD gland nut

Clutch Kennedy 1700lb PP

Heater boxes: stock present

Pulley/rear seal: Stock size pulley, no sand seal.

Exhaust: Empi 3312 4 into 1, 1.5" primaries, homemade Magnaflow exhaust with 2.5" inlet and outlet
Exhaust: Heat riser enabled

Additional gauges: Gauges under rear seat: Voltmeter, oil pressure and mechanical oil temp. Temp sender mounted in Type 3 dipstick adapter plate on RR of engine in sump.

Stock trans (4:12, .89), axles, 165SR15 Michelin tires
_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26743
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah you have it about right, 4000 rpm or a bit less is probably a good limit to expect.
One way to cheat with the cam is to retard it a bit. Usually on small motors or with big heads you want to run 3 to 5 advanced.
(so if cam has a 108 lobe seperation, the intake is on 103 to 105 lc)
Engle aims for 3 advance as ground I believe, in your shoes I might try setting it up right on the split, no advance.
Those extra few degrees the exhaust valve will be open after the piston comes up could make an actual difference if you do build it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AlteWagen
Troll


Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8498
Location: PNW
AlteWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does the advancing or retarding do to the engine. Move the power around (up or down), add more power, allow more advance??

Will these changes still be noticable with the restrictive exhaust valve??

BTW, is it the valve itself or the size of the port that is the restriction?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
modok
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26743
Location: Colorado Springs
modok is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably the valve and valve seat is the restriction.
Valve seat id is only bout 28mm, and don't forget the stem takes up a bit of space too.

Retarding the cam does generally move the power up, mostly because you then close the intake valve later, but in this case I'm thinking more about what happens at TDC.
Think about it......... If there is plenty of exhaust flow you can open the intake valve sooner and close the exhaust sooner no problem.
But if exhaust flow is marginal leaving the exhaust valve open as long as possible and having it farther open at TDC could help a lot, and there is no point in opening the intake extra early either.
ALSO, retarding the cam opens the exhaust later.........this is not what we want, but it makes the least difference, won't hurt as much as the extra lift at TDC will help.
Make sense?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
storm
Samba Member


Joined: April 28, 2008
Posts: 298
Location: Juneau, Wisconsin
storm is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:12 am    Post subject: to 74 thing Reply with quote

yes you are right, there are 1 1/2 id pipes in a heat exchanger. Have them up here in Winconsin, I like some heat before I put the bus in hibernation. I took the exchangers apart and brasez copper strips all around the J tubes. not like oringinal but better. storm
_________________
always ready to learn and give advice
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Oldbugr
Samba Member


Joined: December 19, 2007
Posts: 291
Location: Dusty Tucson
Oldbugr is online now 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My 2 cents, I'm running 1 1/2' heater boxes, live in the pacific northwest, and my 63 bug has awesome heat. 2110 motor, oil temp aver 180, cht's=300-350 average.
_________________
64 Beetle
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
lonewolfe
Samba Member


Joined: April 09, 2010
Posts: 59
Location: San Francisco
lonewolfe is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: to 74 thing Reply with quote

storm wrote:
yes you are right, there are 1 1/2 id pipes in a heat exchanger. Have them up here in Winconsin, I like some heat before I put the bus in hibernation. I took the exchangers apart and brasez copper strips all around the J tubes. not like oringinal but better. storm


Hey Storm! I'm a little late to this discussion but it is relevant to the engine I'm working on. I'm building a 2017 for my 70' Type 2 Westy Tintop with PP'd 044 heads. I want to run a 1 1/2" exhaust with heater boxes. I'm in the SF Bay area and it does get chilly hear. In the summer it can be the coldest place in the country. Anyhow, I'm going to run 1 1/2" heater boxes but have not bought them yet. I am still undecided about which exhaust to run as well. Either an A1, Vintage Speed Super Flow or some other 1 1/2" merged exhaust like a Gene Berg. Anyhow, I've been thinking about modifying the heater boxes to get more surface to heat. Do you have any pictures of your heater boxes after adding the copper strips?
_________________
If you hear these words then get out of the way, "Hey Ya'll, Watch this!!!".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Arnolds64
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 724

Arnolds64 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:10 pm    Post subject: The problem with boxes. Reply with quote

The biggest problem is the pressure that the heater system can produce. I had the aftermarket no finned cheap 1 3/8 boxes before. I also ran the Turbo fans under the seats ( Really Marine head fans) With them installed it was nice and toasty. It is the same as the Barney's set up in Hot VW's mag.
I would definitely do this if I had a Bus mounting them some where in the loop. If you can't run the finned boxes like stock then this might help at least getting the heat to the front better as a trade off?
_________________
64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Arnolds64
Samba Member


Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 724

Arnolds64 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: to 74 thing Reply with quote

lonewolfe wrote:
storm wrote:
yes you are right, there are 1 1/2 id pipes in a heat exchanger. Have them up here in Winconsin, I like some heat before I put the bus in hibernation. I took the exchangers apart and brasez copper strips all around the J tubes. not like oringinal but better. storm


Hey Storm! I'm a little late to this discussion but it is relevant to the engine I'm working on. I'm building a 2017 for my 70' Type 2 Westy Tintop with PP'd 044 heads. I want to run a 1 1/2" exhaust with heater boxes. I'm in the SF Bay area and it does get chilly hear. In the summer it can be the coldest place in the country. Anyhow, I'm going to run 1 1/2" heater boxes but have not bought them yet. I am still undecided about which exhaust to run as well. Either an A1, Vintage Speed Super Flow or some other 1 1/2" merged exhaust like a Gene Berg. Anyhow, I've been thinking about modifying the heater boxes to get more surface to heat. Do you have any pictures of your heater boxes after adding the copper strips?


My Boxes are I think are custom made. Bought then used from a guy that bought them second and have no idea what they are. All I can tell you is that they are big tube 1 1/2 and someone welded the fins onto the tubes that look to be from some stock boxes. I was told that Berg built something like this at one time? They work very well as you can imagine and with the booster fans mentioned in my last reply here it is very good. Someone had to have opened a stock set and put this together. What is unusual is that the #1 tube once it makes it way out of the box and into the header it make a 45 degree turn with a flange that bolts to the header. The other side #3 is straight like the normal one. Do they turn on a Bus like that or something? It really does not need to.
_________________
64 Bug, White, 2017, Dual Weber 44's, Engle 130/Engle lifters, Home P&P'd 40X35 heads, CB 4340 nitrided crank, Eagle knock off H Beam 5.5" rods, Lowering Beam, Rancho Trans, Traction Bar. 225X60's rear, 145's front on Porsche Chrome Nipple Wheels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
74 Thing
Samba Member


Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7375

74 Thing is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a thread on how to build your own with photos

http://www.cal-look.com/forum/cal-look-high-performance/would-i-be-wasting-my-time/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.