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Pastis, The Ultimate Subaru Boxer diesel EE20 Vanagon Syncro
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would put these low engine speed with low engine load sudden tranny failures down to sudden braking. Not engine braking but foot braking. The high effective rotating mass of certain engine configurations combined with a sudden stopping of the wheels creates a large impulse in the tranny and something has to give. Yes, it is the driver that does this but off-road he may not realize it and in a city he may have no choice but to stomp on the brake hard sometimes without pushing in the clutch.

Mark
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Emergency braking, when taught by a profession, includes "clutch in" for the reason Mark has brought up, for other reasons as well.

Brakes, including upgrading that entire system is highly recommended to match the increased power and torque of your choice of engine conversion.

Still, the driver needs to use them....properly...to not destroy driveline parts.

It is truly unfortunate that the amount of drivers errors have given more powerful engines a bad name in the Vanagon world.

Blaming engines, vendors and rebuilders is plain stupid.
Learn to drive people Exclamation
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Signalocity
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Emergency braking, when taught by a profession, includes "clutch in" for the reason Mark has brought up, for other reasons as well.

Brakes, including upgrading that entire system is highly recommended to match the increased power and torque of your choice of engine conversion.

Still, the driver needs to use them....properly...to not destroy driveline parts.

It is truly unfortunate that the amount of drivers errors have given more powerful engines a bad name in the Vanagon world.

Blaming engines, vendors and rebuilders is plain stupid.
Learn to drive people Exclamation


From everything I have read, the transaxle will only hold up reliably to a certain torque threshold, 150 ft. lb. comes up often. One can only modify the factory transaxle so much when building it to suit an engine conversion, as it has its limits. When you say it's not the engine, but the driver, I read that as ... you have to baby it. If you can't use the full potential of the engine whenever you want/need it, whats the point? Not arguing validity here, just trying to clarify. Sure, you might be doing something repeatedly as a driver to cause the stress, but if the torque (and other stress factors of course) isn't there to begin with, the transaxle wouldn't break (or last longer in most cases), yes? Of course there are a lot of variables in play, but it seems to me that a higher torque engine will greatly increase the odds of an earlier failure rate, without babying it that is.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Signalocity wrote:
insyncro wrote:
Emergency braking, when taught by a profession, includes "clutch in" for the reason Mark has brought up, for other reasons as well.

Brakes, including upgrading that entire system is highly recommended to match the increased power and torque of your choice of engine conversion.

Still, the driver needs to use them....properly...to not destroy driveline parts.

It is truly unfortunate that the amount of drivers errors have given more powerful engines a bad name in the Vanagon world.

Blaming engines, vendors and rebuilders is plain stupid.
Learn to drive people Exclamation



From everything I have read, the transaxle will only hold up reliably to a certain torque threshold, 150 ft. lb. comes up often. One can only modify the factory transaxle so much when building it to suit an engine conversion, as it has its limits. When you say it's not the engine, but the driver, I read that as ... you have to baby it. If you can't use the full potential of the engine whenever you want/need it, whats the point? Not arguing validity here, just trying to clarify. Sure, you might be doing something repeatedly as a driver to cause the stress, but if the torque (and other stress factors of course) isn't there to begin with, the transaxle wouldn't break (or last longer in most cases), yes? Sure there are a lot of variables in play, but it seems to me that a higher torque engine will greatly increase the odds of an earlier failure rate, without babying it that is.


I am not going to sign off on "baby it", but as quoted directly to and about the circumstances around destroying multiple transmissions in a row...."don't drive stupid", is my preference Wink

I respectfully drive, build and maintain H6, Porsche powered and extremely heavily loaded expedition vans.
Most of the time and I'm a gamblin' Man, the driver had a large or complete part in the demise of driveline parts.

People seem to really enjoy a bunch of equations and statistics around here.
The fact that leaps out in my detailed spreadsheets for Vanagon conversions, is that Bostig conversions don't catalyze transmission failures...when driven within normal limits, which includes offroading, the very humble 2.0 liter.
Sized perfectly for the Syncro and 2wd stock transmissions.

With the stock HP and torque numbers for modern engines being used...the transmission and other driveline parts must be beefed up, if not more than, the increase from stock HP/torque.

Add in heavily loaded, AWD traction, lifted suspensions, larger diameter wheels and tires.....a Lotta variables, ya dig, and they need to all be beefed up on the same plane...or with the slip of the clutch or tap of the brake, the "main" shaft spins itself free...who woulda thunk it Idea
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furrylittleotter
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Signalocity wrote:
If you can't use the full potential of the engine whenever you want/need it, whats the point? .



I believe Greg, being very intelligent, was well aware the Syncro Transmission had limitations but decided to move forward with the project planning to upgrade at a later date if needed.

Keep in mind he started this project like 5 years ago(?) and it evolved to include the Subaru Diesel along the way.

(When I saw the van back then, it wasn't even a Westy yet.)

Since that time, reversed Subaru ring and pinions, backwards running Turbo Diesels, and the install of an entire Quattro running gear projects have all entered the Vanagon arena.

As someone once said: "The times they are a-changing"

I'm sure this van will be running just fine for many years to come.

Neil2
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Signalocity
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Signalocity wrote:
insyncro wrote:
Emergency braking, when taught by a profession, includes "clutch in" for the reason Mark has brought up, for other reasons as well.

Brakes, including upgrading that entire system is highly recommended to match the increased power and torque of your choice of engine conversion.

Still, the driver needs to use them....properly...to not destroy driveline parts.

It is truly unfortunate that the amount of drivers errors have given more powerful engines a bad name in the Vanagon world.

Blaming engines, vendors and rebuilders is plain stupid.
Learn to drive people Exclamation



From everything I have read, the transaxle will only hold up reliably to a certain torque threshold, 150 ft. lb. comes up often. One can only modify the factory transaxle so much when building it to suit an engine conversion, as it has its limits. When you say it's not the engine, but the driver, I read that as ... you have to baby it. If you can't use the full potential of the engine whenever you want/need it, whats the point? Not arguing validity here, just trying to clarify. Sure, you might be doing something repeatedly as a driver to cause the stress, but if the torque (and other stress factors of course) isn't there to begin with, the transaxle wouldn't break (or last longer in most cases), yes? Sure there are a lot of variables in play, but it seems to me that a higher torque engine will greatly increase the odds of an earlier failure rate, without babying it that is.


I am not going to sign off on "baby it", but as quoted directly to and about the circumstances around destroying multiple transmissions in a row...."don't drive stupid", is my preference Wink

I respectfully drive, build and maintain H6, Porsche powered and extremely heavily loaded expedition vans.
Most of the time and I'm a gamblin' Man, the driver had a large or complete part in the demise of driveline parts.

People seem to really enjoy a bunch of equations and statistics around here.
The fact that leaps out in my detailed spreadsheets for Vanagon conversions, is that Bostig conversions don't catalyze transmission failures...when driven within normal limits, which includes offroading, the very humble 2.0 liter.
Sized perfectly for the Syncro and 2wd stock transmissions.

With the stock HP and torque numbers for modern engines being used...the transmission and other driveline parts must be beefed up, if not more than, the increase from stock HP/torque.

Add in heavily loaded, AWD traction, lifted suspensions, larger diameter wheels and tires.....a Lotta variables, ya dig, and they need to all be beefed up on the same plane...or with the slip of the clutch or tap of the brake, the "main" shaft spins itself free...who woulda thunk it Idea


Fair enough! This thought line was another leading factor for going the Bostig route myself.

Sorry for the thread tangent!
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see it as a tangent, but simple fact to show that torque kills and drivers err. Wink
Without having technology, driveline wise, to handle twice the torque of stock and building this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Is just not possible for many reasons.

Rebuild and update by AAtransaxle.
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Signalocity
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

furrylittleotter wrote:
Signalocity wrote:
If you can't use the full potential of the engine whenever you want/need it, whats the point? .



I believe Greg, being very intelligent, was well aware the Syncro Transmission had limitations but decided to move forward with the project planning to upgrade at a later date if needed.

Keep in mind he started this project like 5 years ago(?) and it evolved to include the Subaru Diesel along the way.

(When I saw the van back then, it wasn't even a Westy yet.)

Since that time, reversed Subaru ring and pinions, backwards running Turbo Diesels, and the install of an entire Quattro running gear projects have all entered the Vanagon arena.

As someone once said: "The times they are a-changing"

I'm sure this van will be running just fine for many years to come.

Neil2


Aye, I have no doubt at all in Greg's ability or understanding either. I have been following this thread from the beginning as well. I wasn't referring to this build in particular with that statement, just in general. Having a drive line with one mismatched component limits the use/longevity. I know Greg had visioned a complete Subaru driveline in this thread at one point, but sometimes having to move forward with a build takes precedence. I only brought it up to begin with, because I thought he was leveling some responsibility of fault with AA on the longevity of the rebuild, but it was just wording and semantics confusing my interpretation.

Trust me, the day someone makes a stout transaxle with low gear and a locker available for less than 6k, will be the day I start looking into an engine upgrade lol.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some reference from the torque master:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=621285&highlight=herman
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MsTaboo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Signalocity wrote:
Trust me, the day someone makes a stout transaxle with low gear and a locker available for less than 6k, will be the day I start looking into an engine upgrade lol.

And this is the bottom line. We need a new Syncro transmission, it's the only way forward into the next few decades.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MsTaboo wrote:
Signalocity wrote:
Trust me, the day someone makes a stout transaxle with low gear and a locker available for less than 6k, will be the day I start looking into an engine upgrade lol.

And this is the bottom line. We need a new Syncro transmission, it's the only way forward into the next few decades.


A lot of Volks and vendors will need to pony up big time to have that happen.
Minimum orders will be high for the prices needed for most Syncro owners to purchase.
And I would imagine it will need to be paid in full before the production run.
Not many of the Vanagon faithful I know are going to kick down when the product is untested, ring a bell? Wink

Treat what you have with respect and your time will come, hopefully later than sooner.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps Weddle, Albins or Mendeola would be interested in producing a rear engined AWD version of one of their existing trans designs. Of those, I'm guessing Weddle would be the most likely to bite on just such an endeavor. Big $$$
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We found a good old man in the Buenos Aires area that has been into VW's for 55 years. He has all the tools for the transmission and he seems pretty confident about the job. He is nice enough to do it with meand teach me! He never did a syncro transmission before but with the Bentley we should be fine

Monday we are getting this locknut out and we are getting in depth. So far the R&P is intact and the magnet plug had no suspicious particles so we feel pretty good about no more damage.

I'm not sure how I feel about this mainshaft failure. My current loaded map is at 140hp and extremely efficient. Nothing brutal like the 160hp or 200hp available Trust me.

What I think happened is that we used extensively the 4wd mode with decoupler on many gravel/muddy/wet (all you can imagine) roads in Patagonia and that had fatigued the material. Then at a peak torque during normal utilisation the shaft sheared.

We have so many miles of abuse on the decoupler it's incredible! One thing I will do for sure is pay better attention of tire wear and make sure they are all even during long 4wd roads!


Greg

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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- the Pastis build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=434656&highlight=subaru+diesel
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed the new mainshaft. The job was actually fun, and it was an oportunity to learn the vanagon transmission. Jorge the 72 year old mechanic was there somewhere in his shop to give me a hand if needed. While I replaced the mainshaft I also replaced the 3rd gear synchro that came grinding from AAtransaxle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All done ready to go, new breather hose, new decoupler actuator, everything re-lubed with cv-2.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Now we have a couple hundred miles on the gearbox we are in Uruguay, Montevideo. They say it is the Switzerland of south america and they were right! Here we wake up next to a LT cabin bolted to a 4x4 MAN chassis (awesome).


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ciao

Greg
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- the Pastis build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=434656&highlight=subaru+diesel
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps using low quality rear halfshafts might be a good idea.
The 930 will not give one bit and let the trans take to brunt of it.
Way easier to replace a halfshaft in the wild vs rebuilding a transmission.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

syncrogreg wrote:
I installed the new mainshaft. The job was actually fun…

Now we have a couple hundred miles on the gearbox we are in Uruguay


Huge respect for your wrenching skills
Love your photos!
Congrats on your progress Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whoa! Once a $600 syncro....Amazing. I enjoyed reading through the thread and seeing all that you did. Incredible. Happy to see you and your wife are on the road. Question...now that you've had some time on the road what are some things you would have done different or would add now? Again...fantastic job.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay...now that your down there in the Switzerland of the south perhaps you should go see a doctor...calling this work "fun" leads to questions about your sanity!
Then again being fun is why you're good at it! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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One year and counting! It’s hard to believe it’s been exactly one year, exactly 30,000 miles, and uncountable adventures since we rolled out of the driveway in Nashville. We could measure our trip in so many ways…20 border crossings, 0 bribes or fines, 3 nails in the tires, 2 visits from friends, 4 earthquakes, 24 crepeattacks, 1 broken transmission shaft.
October 7th is a special day, but at the same time, you can’t quantify the things that we have experienced. Sea turtles hatching, Costa Rican sunsets, glaciers calving, cows calving, volcanoes coughing smoke, Andean subsistence farmers who decided not to charge us ‘el precio gringo,’ surfing deserted Ecuadorian beaches, climbing Patagonian rock faces, ceviche caught and prepared in front of us in Mexico, Chilean fishmarkets, Andean children tearing up when their parents dragged them out of the van, 4000 year-old trees, day-old llamas, and immeasurable generosity and affirmation from the people we’ve met along the way.

With Greg’s insane upgrades and knowhow, we haven’t run into any van issues we can’t (or rather, he can’t) tackle with ease. We’d been told that a year side by side, 24/7, would count as 10 years of marriage. But we’re happy together, and this life has become second nature. So no, we don’t want to kill each other. We want to keep on rolling. Bring on year two!

Facebook.com/crepeattack
Instagram.com/crepeattack
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- the Pastis build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=434656&highlight=subaru+diesel
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome! Very Happy
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