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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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 Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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Let’s see
1k with 12 volts across it loads 10 milliamperes
That’s non conductive as far as horn supply goes. I’m guessing Ray is right, that the carbon is the source of conductivity, but someone really technical can clarify maybe.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Abscate wrote: |
Let’s see
1k with 12 volts across it loads 10 milliamperes
That’s non conductive as far as horn supply goes. I’m guessing Ray is right, that the carbon is the source of conductivity, but someone really technical can clarify maybe. |
Yep....this could be more made to act conductive....if there were more volts/amps applied.....but then at that point there would/could be some level of inductive heating.
We still just do not know anything ....really....about the original specification of this part until someone digs up some production documentation....like a blue print. Like what we find for the fuel injection connectors from AMP.....which specifies materials and tolerances.
How hard/durometer was it supposed to be? What material? Static dissipating material?......we just dont know.
Actually it would make sense.....and not just for this part but a few others.....that an engineer "might" specify static dissipation rubber.
And.....if that rubber were poorly formulated in some third world country .....you could easily get rubber that is conductive at a wholesale level like some of the re-pop parts have been found to be.
It also "could" simply be a layer on the surface crom the molding process or even have been caused from some mold release compound.
While I carry a lot of instruments......one of the few that I could really use that I have not yet invested in.....is a meter that measures volume resistivity. If the contract I was working for the past 6 months .....had not ended last week......had it continued say for another month....that tool would have been next on the list 😭.
Oh well.....it did last long enough/generate enough spare $ to get a new microscope, new durometer gauge, new dyne pins, new PH meter, new temp probes .....among other things.
A volume resistivity check would tell the tale on one of these couplers....whether its a design feature of the rubber or just a surface effect. Ray |
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bnam
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Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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I measured 128ohm resistance across this German made coupler I bought for my KG. Made the horn blow all the time
Found a good Japanese made one from a Suzuki Jimmy that was perfect.
I wonder if the 71 on bus couplers were designed to be conductive and that’s what is being sold for other applications as well.
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Fairmounter
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2017
Posts: 173
Location: Guatemala
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:20 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| bnam wrote: |
I measured 128ohm resistance across this German made coupler I bought for my KG. Made the horn blow all the time
Found a good Japanese made one from a Suzuki Jimmy that was perfect.
I wonder if the 71 on bus couplers were designed to be conductive and that’s what is being sold for other applications as well. |
If Jimney couplers work, that could be very useful. Is this the one?
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/suzuki-off-road-parts/samurai/steering/steering-rag-joint.html |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| bnam wrote: |
| I wonder if the 71 on bus couplers were designed to be conductive and that’s what is being sold for other applications as well. |
The 68-74(? not sure of exact year) couplers should have all been NON-conductive, and after that, it just doesn't matter. Evidently VW changed the spec
when they changed the horn circuit on later bays, but failed to change the part number at the same time. As it stands now, all 71-79 busses can use the
the same coupler, with the same part number, but early bays will suffer if the coupler is conductive. The conductivity seems to be a random thing between
manufacturers. The measured resistance of a coupler in hand could be very misleading, as the resistance can drop dramatically when the coupler is
installed, and again when the coupler has stress applied to it, as it would in a hard turn.
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bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Fairmounter wrote: |
| bnam wrote: |
I measured 128ohm resistance across this German made coupler I bought for my KG. Made the horn blow all the time
Found a good Japanese made one from a Suzuki Jimmy that was perfect.
I wonder if the 71 on bus couplers were designed to be conductive and that’s what is being sold for other applications as well. |
If Jimney couplers work, that could be very useful. Is this the one?
http://www.lowrangeoffroad.com/suzuki-off-road-parts/samurai/steering/steering-rag-joint.html |
That looks like the one. I have a part number I can look up in a few days
_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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bnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
| bnam wrote: |
| I wonder if the 71 on bus couplers were designed to be conductive and that’s what is being sold for other applications as well. |
The 68-74(? not sure of exact year) couplers should have all been NON-conductive, and after that, it just doesn't matter. Evidently VW changed the spec
when they changed the horn circuit on later bays, but failed to change the part number at the same time. As it stands now, all 71-79 busses can use the
the same coupler, with the same part number, but early bays will suffer if the coupler is conductive. The conductivity seems to be a random thing between
manufacturers. The measured resistance of a coupler in hand could be very misleading, as the resistance can drop dramatically when the coupler is
installed, and again when the coupler has stress applied to it, as it would in a hard turn. |
My 71 Bay uses a grounded column and can use a conductive coupler. With the 128ohm surface resistance, I had a constant horn.
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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kreemoweet
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Joined: March 13, 2008
Posts: 3899
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| bnam wrote: |
| My 71 Bay uses a grounded column and can use a conductive coupler. With the 128ohm surface resistance, I had a constant horn. |
Hmm, trying to figure what that might mean. The stock 71-74? horn circuit had a HOT steering column and column tube. That's why a conductive coupling
will cause the horn to sound in those vehicles: it allows current to flow from steering column to (grounded) steering box flange. The later busses had a GROUNDED column
and column tube, and had a wire jumper from the column to the steering box flange. Are you saying you have a late bay steering column/tube installed
in your '71? If so, whether the coupling is conductive or not would not matter a bit, and would not cause the horn to sound. Please explain.
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bnam
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Joined: July 02, 2006
Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| kreemoweet wrote: |
| bnam wrote: |
| My 71 Bay uses a grounded column and can use a conductive coupler. With the 128ohm surface resistance, I had a constant horn. |
Hmm, trying to figure what that might mean. The stock 71-74? horn circuit had a HOT steering column and column tube. That's why a conductive coupling
will cause the horn to sound in those vehicles: it allows current to flow from steering column to (grounded) steering box flange. The later busses had a GROUNDED column
and column tube, and had a wire jumper from the column to the steering box flange. Are you saying you have a late bay steering column/tube installed
in your '71? If so, whether the coupling is conductive or not would not matter a bit, and would not cause the horn to sound. Please explain. |
Poor writing on my part. The conductive part caused the horn to constantly blow on my 65 Ghia.
On my 71 bus, the column is NOT hot BUT that’s because PO installed 77 setup. I forget that little fact sometimes.
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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Fairmounter
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2017
Posts: 173
Location: Guatemala
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| bnam wrote: |
That looks like the one. I have a part number I can look up in a few days |
Thanks. Correct parts are hard to get here and shipping from the US is not practical. But we have lots of Jimneys.
Do you recall what year Jimney it was from? The link I found is actually for a Samurai, though the parts stores here will likely have Jimney parts. |
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bnam
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Posts: 2936
Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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_________________
1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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static
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Joined: March 22, 2002
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Location: The High Desert
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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How, on earth, did you ever figure this out?
Did you have to sort through hundreds of different steering couplers from various makes and models of cars in order to find the right one? |
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Fairmounter
Samba Member
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Posts: 173
Location: Guatemala
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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it looks like it doesn't have the metal sleeves where the bolts go through, would that be an issue? |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
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Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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Yes, but easily solved
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Wildthings
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bnam
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Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| static wrote: |
How, on earth, did you ever figure this out?
Did you have to sort through hundreds of different steering couplers from various makes and models of cars in order to find the right one? |
Auto parts stores here are used to trying to match a used part to one that they have in stock. I posted on a local group and someone told me that this part was a match. So, I went to local Maruti-Suzuki parts distributor, looked up their parts book for the part number and bought the coupling and the matching bushings.
Byas
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1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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And.....I noted this several years ago....if you look closely at that Suzuki coupler...its made of reinforced sheet goods....which is just fine.
These do NOT have to be molded parts.
You can go to virtually any large hose and rubber shop, pick out reinforced material just like that and as long as its teh right thickness and does not conduct...they can punch out a coupler just like that in minutes. Those holes are all done with hollow core drills or single bevel die punches.
Those who live n Dallas or Houston have access to a fabulous company called Texas Rubber supply. They have miles of sheet goods of all type, are a hydraulic hose mfg....you name it. They have an entire rubber department with thousands of dies for making parts just like that and also have the punch and core drill presses and waterjets and shears....to make them custom.
There are many places in the US that do this type of work. You just have to look for them. Ray |
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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One thing to watch with any coupler
Make sure you understand where the bolts/nut come under tension, that is, what are they hitting as you reach final torque. A rubber parts will relax and give up its tension which will let a conventional bolt nut get loose.
If you think it’s tensioned on a rubber part...
Loctite
Castellation/split pins
Locknuts
Other
...and always an acute engineering solution of steering situational awareness
Perhaps a 3 month inspection Interval?
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TomWesty
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Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3482
Location: Wyoming,USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| Abscate wrote: |
One thing to watch with any coupler
Make sure you understand where the bolts/nut come under tension, that is, what are they hitting as you reach final torque. A rubber parts will relax and give up its tension which will let a conventional bolt nut get loose.
If you think it’s tensioned on a rubber part...
Loctite
Castellation/split pins
Locknuts
Other
...and always an acute engineering solution of steering situational awareness
Perhaps a 3 month inspection Interval? |
castellated nut/ cotter pin with the bolt oriented downward for the win!
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SamboSamba22
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Joined: August 06, 2015
Posts: 2772
Location: Benton, Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Steering Coupling Disc 211415417 (coupler) |
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| TomWesty wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
One thing to watch with any coupler
Make sure you understand where the bolts/nut come under tension, that is, what are they hitting as you reach final torque. A rubber parts will relax and give up its tension which will let a conventional bolt nut get loose.
If you think it’s tensioned on a rubber part...
Loctite
Castellation/split pins
Locknuts
Other
...and always an acute engineering solution of steering situational awareness
Perhaps a 3 month inspection Interval? |
castellated nut/ cotter pin with the bolt oriented downward for the win! |
FOR THE WIN!!!
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