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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: TDI guys- how abundant is biodiesel? |
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I'm curious. people try to shoot it down saying it draws on our food supply- although we have never had a larger surplus of genmod corn-
this one feature makes the diesel worth keeping-
so, how about viability? availability? |
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buildyourown Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2009 Posts: 1668 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:18 am Post subject: |
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In the NW, it's easy to find. I was buying B100 at 3 different places a few years ago. Now B20 and B5 are very common.
In my regular diesel truck, I think B50 is the best compromise. |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Todd, I have seen it every now and then on the last couple cross country trips we have made. Not being sure of how my pump seals and hoses could be affected so far from home, I opted to purchase plain ole fossil fuel diesel. At our last fill up, the station was selling diesel fuel with 10% bio mixed. Similar to how gasoline is up to 10% alchohol. That was the only option, so I went ahead and filled up. When bio becomes more available, I would be more than glad to start using it. Just not up to jumping back and forth between both types. mark _________________ ☮️ |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1686 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: |
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It's pretty hit or miss, very hard to find in socal.
If you plan to buy biodiesel in socal you will need to get a special card that will allow you to buy it.
Most biodiesel suppliers in socal are coops too, meaning you have to join them and cannot just be a once in a while customer, or someone passing through.
Otherwise its pretty scattered across the US. I lucked out and found some on the way to dallas in Amarillo once, just happened to stop for diesel and found the bio.
Other times when you find biodiesel it will be B2.....thats right 2%. Studies show that B2 offers the benefits of the added lubricity without the loss of energy, so its really just an additive at that point.
Most other times you will find B5 or B20, its getting harder and harder to find high concentrations such as B100/99.
You'll also find that getting a good comprehensive list of Biodiesel suppliers is hard, stations that do show up on listing dissappear or no longer carry bio, and then other stations don't show up either.
The most frustrating is finding a listing for a bio station, going out of your way to get there, and then finding its a cardlock bio pump. Grrrr.
Point being, don't count on Bio to be your only source of fuel, and don't count on it being available commercially when other fuels are not. Best way to ensure a supply of BioD for your own use is to make it yourself, though you will find that hard to do in California as haulers of waste oil from resturants are required to have a special license to do so, meaning resturant owners are not supposed to let anyone other than a license haulers remove it.
California, the "squeeze the last drop of joy of out life" state. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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It seems that you are inferring that you can switch back and forth being bio and reg. Is this so? I did not know that. When I was selling my Westy a not so young chap said he'd buy it if it was a diesel because he wanted to run biofuel. I've read that a lot of hollywood type people are committed to it.
I've never seen it for sale altho I have seen big bins of used cooking oils sitting behind restaurants and I'd suppose that someone picks it up. In this area of Canada diesel is a few cents less than reg gas and I suppose that is a factor but diesel is not big in personally owned vehicles but I'd say that Vanagoners are trying to change that.
Can you run biofuel straight from the cooker into the diesels? I guess it would have to have some filters and I'd wonder what it would smell like and would it smoke? _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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Daizee, There might be some confusion on this topic. You can run a diesel on waste cooking oil, but it requires a seperate tank and a heater system to heat the waste oil so it flows and yes, a quality filtration system. You also need a change over valve so that you can start the engine and get it to operating temperature before switching to grease. The process for shutting off the engine is the same. You switch back to diesel and run the engine for 5 mins or so before you shut it off.
You can also with specialize equipment, refine waste grease in to a true biofuel, but is a bit of work. The last still I saw that could do a decent batch was close to $10K. You also have lie as a waste product from the process I believe. This refined bio can be run in the stock fuel tank.
You can also purchase biodiesel already made. It could come from many renewable sources. I have also seen as mentioned above mixes of bio and fossil diesel for sale.
Going back and forth should be fine, but I have read accounts where the pump seals have changed size and started to leak. I have read accounts where the rubber supply lines are affected, and of deposits being loosened by the bio only to cause pump problems. That is why I did not experment 3500 miles for home with fuels. Hope that helps. _________________ ☮️ |
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jerrydog411 Samba Member
Joined: September 28, 2009 Posts: 388 Location: North Vancouver, BC
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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start here: call around and check restrictions (co op , cardlock etc.) first.
I have traveled from BC to SoCal a few times with print outs of the appropriate state's lists and have found them very helpful.
I do generally call first ... just in case.
what part of NA are you in?
Cheers,
John
1982 1.9TD Westy
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/biomaps/biomaps.shtm# |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for clarifying (no pun intended) _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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I buy mine from the local commercial fueling joint, in both B20 and B99 pumps. B99 will turn pure rubber into goop in short order. I've found that the combination of heat and bio will degrade even the good German cloth-wrapped injector return fuel lines, so I always swap in viton tubing when running a diesel car on the stuff. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Sir Sam Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2009 Posts: 1686 Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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DAIZEE wrote: |
It seems that you are inferring that you can switch back and forth being bio and reg. Is this so?
Can you run biofuel straight from the cooker into the diesels? I guess it would have to have some filters and I'd wonder what it would smell like and would it smoke? |
Yes, biodiesel can be switched back and forth with no problem, it is refined oil that has been transesterfied and is ready to be run. The downsides is that older diesels with older lines will sometimes degrade with the new biofuel, and that it makes a pretty good solvent, it will often flush dirt and other crap out from the tank into the fuel, so when switching for the first time you can plug up a fuel filter.
On vehicles that regularly or semi regularly see biodiesel this is not an issue, but not the type of thing you want to mess around with while on the road.
You can run pure WVO(waste vegetable oil) or SVO (straight vegetable oil) WVO often has lots of nasty stuff in it, chicken crumbs, water etc, and needs to be heavily filtered prior to use. Centrifugal filters are good for this.
Once filtered WVO(or virgin SVO) can be run in any diesel engine. However additional equipment is needed, it is almost a must that you run a second tank and it is a must that you run a good fuel heater. SVO is VERY viscious! The added viscousity means that the SVO won't get properly atomized during injection, the newer higher pressure common rail injection systems are able to atomize the fuel better, but suffer in that they do not have the pre chamber of the IDI diesel for a more complete burn, double edged sword so to say.
Ideally you need to heat the SVO to around 180 degrees F, more if you can manage, but thats pretty much the minimum you want to heat it to, once heated you can inject it properly and get a good burn. Newer direct injection engines tend not to run as well at idle and no load conditions on SVO, so its better suited for engines that will not spend lots of time idling and near no load conditions. This can even get bad enough at times that large amounts of unburned SVO will exit the via the exhaust. Pretty freaky to see oil running out your exhaust! For a little while we thought we had blown an oil seal on the turbo!
Sorry this is kind of low resolution, but this graph shows the behavior of SVO vs #2 diesel(the bottom black line). The upper mess of oils are all different form of veggy oils.
SVO also gels at a much higher temperature:
On the left is regular diesel, the middle is 50% SVO 50% diesel, and the right is 99% SVO. _________________ '91 Carat Westy
87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon |
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supersooner Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2005 Posts: 131 Location: At the ranch - 20 miles east of Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:09 pm Post subject: BioDiesel |
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I'm sure it's heretical to mention a gm product here, but it's the only vehicle which I have other than a farm tractor that has used bio diesel
When you first change from regular diesel to biodiesel have a spare fuel filter on hand. The biodiesel has some sort of cleaning, scrubbing, or dissolving action on the fuel supply lines and will clog a filter. After that first change - no problem. I have gone back and forth and even mixed bio diesel with the diesel in the tank. Can't tell the difference other than smell. Not the french fry smell like from straight veg oil burners. It was very popular with local farmers here when diesel was up at $4.00 /gallon. The local producer was selling it for $2.00. Said it cost him 65 cents to make. He had a route with different restaurants and picked up the oil and converted it himself. I looked into it, but was a little afraid of the chemicals - and then diesel went back down in price. We can buy off road diesel for use in our farm machinery and save 45 cents or so per gallon. I don't see service stations that sell the bio diesel here in central Oklahoma, but I haven't really looked. I've seen it in Texas along I-35 South of Dallas. I think it was B85. _________________ 71 tintop westy
82 Diesel westy
75 westy
76 westy |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17124 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Sir Sam, much better information. thank you _________________ ☮️ |
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jackbombay Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007 Posts: 2723 Location: Eastern Idaho
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: TDI guys- how abundant is biodiesel? |
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thummmper wrote: |
I'm curious. people try to shoot it down saying it draws on our food supply- although we have never had a larger surplus of genmod corn- |
Ethanol is made from corn though, biodiesel is typically made from soybean oil.
If your Biodiesel is made from new oil as much of it is, its quite possibly worse for the environment than filling up with dinosaur juice.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/GlobalWarming/story?id=4257226&page=1
Bio made form old fryer oil is a different story, but thats not the norm. _________________
Gas struts to pop your top easily!
Pop Top strut kits now available for late Bay window Westies
Samba ad here.
DIY artificial rain gutters (ARGs) |
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westyventures Samba Member
Joined: December 29, 2004 Posts: 2306 Location: Oregon Outback
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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More information here and a locator for finding fuel (although likely to be out of date last I checked):
http://biodiesel.org/ |
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DAIZEE Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2010 Posts: 7552 Location: Greater Toronto Area Ontario West Side
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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I'll be sticking to diesel but that is excellent information I always wondered about. thanks _________________ '09 2.5L Jetta 5 cylinder, 5 spd, super turbo, see thread in H2O Cooled Jetta, etc...
83.5 Vanagon L Riviera Model with 98 1.9L TD AAZ 4 speed Daily Driver 3 out of 4 seasons (sold)
84 Vanagon GL Wolfsburg Westy WBX 4 speed (sold) |
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wildenbeast Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2008 Posts: 680 Location: Colorado
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purplepeopleeater Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2005 Posts: 3117 Location: E. Washington
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Just collect WVO and make yer own, you can make a 5 gallon reactor and brew your own bio diesel.
I use to have a 55 gallon reactor and brewed my own, and I also washed my bio and had a collector on both to recover my methenol.
Heated my house with this for 5 years....I thought long and hard about doing a TDI swap but deciced that life was too busy right now to be messin with bio again.
I might make a 5 gallon reactor and mess around with it again just to stay sharp. |
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vannygun Samba Member
Joined: July 26, 2006 Posts: 316 Location: Portland,or
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thummmper Samba Member
Joined: November 25, 2009 Posts: 2015 Location: Meadow Valley, California Republic
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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I had plans to make a bitchen potbellied heater from a water heater tank,
fuelled with grease. the combustion dish had to be a certain shape to avoid soot buildup. free, lowtech space heat.
caustic soda ash is required in refining grease. if you spill water on caustic, it will explode. |
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ianstone Samba Member
Joined: September 14, 2005 Posts: 195 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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there are a bunch of places in the bay area to get biodiesel
a friend of mine owns and runs a biodiesel production facility about an hour north of Truckee, CA |
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