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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:31 am Post subject: Brake line flaring |
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I'm in the process of rebuilding a Type I
I am going to replace all of the hard brake lines as well as the flexible lines.
The brake line used on VW's is 4.7 mm
Finding 4.7 mm brake line hasn't been highly successful locally so I am considering using a roll of 3/16 brake line.
4.7 mm = 0.185039
3/16 = 0.1875
difference = 0.002461
Minimal, almost non existent!
So
I am going to use 3/16 steel brake line.
I will harvest my brake line ends and reuse them after a good cleaning.
Now, Europeans favor the Bubble Flare rather than the Double Flare so common here in the State.
I have the double flare tool, have had it for years. I see that I can purchase a Bubble flare tool, a quality one will be $60 or more. Cheap junk for $20, as a rule, I don't buy junk tools but that is another story for another time.
I've got the bar clamp type flaring tool similar to this photo....
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4186ZWFC64L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
Taking the double flare tool and using it "upside down" meaning to work on the square edged flat side of the tool rather than the concave side of the tool you will develop the square edge that the Bubble flare needs.
Using the anvil used for step one of the double flare process you mash the top down causing it to balloon out in a bubble.
IF you stop here, you've created a bubble flare. It may not be the PERFECT 45 degree flare that Bubble flares have, but it is darn close.
I know the perfectionist here will say, "are you willing to risk your life to save $60 ?"
Short answer is "Yes I am" for I don't see an obvious danger here. At worst I'll have a minor seepage but no chance for a catastrophic failure on hard emergency or panic braking. I also do not see the need to purchase the metric bubble flare tool for this size of brake line.
The angle is almost the same, when you join the pipe into the unit you tighten it and deform the bubble to conform to the cylinder seal surface so any slight angle difference is adjusted right there.
Here is a photo I got on line of a Bubble flare made in a Double flare tool being compared next to the factory Bubble Flare.
Feed back?? "I've done it, it does NOT work" "I've done it hundreds of times and NEVER a problem" "you're INSANE to even think about doing this and here's why...." Other opinions ?
Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:27 am; edited 3 times in total |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32586
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 3:42 am Post subject: |
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I found this old post I'll quote here I'll take that as encouragement! I know, I know, asked and THEN searched!! There isn't much out there after dozens of pages. Then again, I don't always use the "correct" words!
Dave
| VDubTech wrote: |
| dan macmillan wrote: |
| Rusty O'Toole wrote: |
| dan macmillan wrote: |
| Rusty O'Toole wrote: |
| German brake lines have different ends than American. Be sure you get the right brake lines. American will fit, but you have to tighten the hell out of them to stop leaks and sometimes they leak anyway. This is a common cause of leaky brake lines on old VWs, wrong brake lines. |
Not entirely true.
VW uses a metric threaded line nut with a BUBBLE flared line. The other option was a standard nut with a double flared line. Today you will find both imports and domestics using both types as well as standard nut with bubble flared line.
The most important is there are 2 line nuts that around the size you need. One is standard thread while the correct one is metric. The standard one will thread into the wheel cyl etc. but it will be loose. When you try to tighten it the threads will get damaged.
If you are getting your parts locally, bring an old wheel cylinder with you to test fit the new line.
I prefer to just make my own lines. I simply reuse the line nuts. Guaranteed fit and no leaks. |
Thanks for the extra information. I would only add 2 things. You can make bubble flares with an ordinary flaring tool, you just upset the metal as you would for a double flare and omit the last step.
And on the question of removing old brake lines that are tight and rusted up. Just cut off the line flush with the fitting using side cutter pliers, and take the fitting out with a socket wrench. Quick, easy, and never fails. |
Not really. |
Yes, really. A Double flare tool first makes a bubble flare on the line before you go to the second step of the double flare. I have some lines handy that are going on my '79 that I used an ordinary double flare tool to make, and they look just fine. Never had a leak. I'll snap a couple pics. |
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Motomazzo
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Joined: June 02, 2009
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:18 am Post subject: |
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Hey DJ,
Boy oh boy.....where do I start here?? I JUST completed my brake line system and containing small weeps/leaks, etc. It was exhausting. But I might have some good insight for you. I'll try to keep it short.
Body-Off restore/mild customization of a '66. All new rigid lines and SS Braided replacement hoses from EMPI (which BTW are Made in the U.S.A).
Inconsequential to your issue, but I installed a residual valve in the rear circuit for my disk brakes. What is applicable is that this valve required double-flares. I rented a double-flaring tool from O'Reilly Auto Parts as I did not have one. When the guy was showing me "how it's done" (he was insistent. I could have just read the instructions in the box which were very easy and straight forward), and he got to the first step before the double-flare anvil was inserted, I said to myself (ah! That's a bubble flare!!). Anyway, I purchased a double-flare tool for this reason. I saw the ability to make bubble-flares and double-flares. In my brake line replacement and leak stopping endeavor, I made two "bubble-flares" with my double-flare tool. One worked great. The other still leaked.
HAVING SAID ALL OF THAT: The disparity in size and shape of the bubble flares on the plain steel replacement rigid brake lines that I purchased (some from Brazil, some China, I think) was ridiculous. Absolutely no consistency and I had as many repeat leakers from the new replacement lines that I purchased as I did with the "bubble-flares" that I made with my double-flare tool. I even showed the guy at the counter of my VW shop the difference in the two flares of two lines he set on the counter for me. One looked kinda like a bubble-flare….the other looked like a UFO. He just said, “yeah….that’s what we see. It just a matter of who does them and where they come from”. It’s all crap. All of it!! Depressing. Anyway…
My personal advice that I would give to you from what I have learned from this experience, take it or leave it: I would purchase a set of SS rigid lines and hoses from Airkewld and forget about it. I almost ripped all mine out and started over with SS lines and hoses from Airkewld at one point, but I was neck deep in the process and wouldn't give up. If I were where you are right now, there's no question that's what I would do. But again, that's just my opinion and my experience. Hopefully others will share theirs as well so you can get a better picture of what you want to do.
Moto |
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
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Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Brake line flaring |
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| djkeev wrote: |
IF you stop here, you've created a bubble flare. It may not be the PERFECT 45 degree flare that Bubble flares have, but it is darn close.
I know the perfectionist here will say, "are you willing to risk your life to save $60 ?"
Short answer is "Yes I am" for I don't see an obvious danger here. At worst I'll have a minor seepage but no chance for a catastrophic failure on hard emergency or panic braking. I also do not see the need to purchase the metric bubble flare tool for this size of brake line.
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warning: personal opinions expressed below.
this is a reflection of the quality of your work, and i personally would not ever let you touch my car with an attitude like that. cutting corners on safety items, especially brakes, really pisses me off. you might change your "yes i am" attitude if one of your brake likes cracks the end off (see pic below), and you lose your brakes and crash into someone, injuring them....or worse.
| djkeev wrote: |
Feed back?? "
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the marring at the end of the line on the right is frightening, and i personally would never install anything like that on my, or anyone elses car. the taper is also pretty sad and i doubt it would seal very well.
while i drool at the Hazet brake line flaring tool, i can't justify the astronomical price for something i would seldom use. add on top of that the time to find/buy the proper lines and the proper ends (i would not re-use old ends on new lines), the time to cut lines to length and doing the flaring, it is beyond not worth my time. it is much easier (for me personally) to make a phone call and have a full kit with correct lines/ends/flares show up at my house a few days later.
i have used numerous brake like kits from WW with zero problems.
http://wolfsburgwest.com/wolfsburg_new/brakes/bug_brake/line_kits.cfm
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32586
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Brake line flaring |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
| djkeev wrote: |
IF you stop here, you've created a bubble flare. It may not be the PERFECT 45 degree flare that Bubble flares have, but it is darn close.
I know the perfectionist here will say, "are you willing to risk your life to save $60 ?"
Short answer is "Yes I am" for I don't see an obvious danger here. At worst I'll have a minor seepage but no chance for a catastrophic failure on hard emergency or panic braking. I also do not see the need to purchase the metric bubble flare tool for this size of brake line.
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warning: personal opinions expressed below.
this is a reflection of the quality of your work, and i personally would not ever let you touch my car with an attitude like that. cutting corners on safety items, especially brakes, really pisses me off. you might change your "yes i am" attitude if one of your brake likes cracks the end off (see pic below), and you lose your brakes and crash into someone, injuring them....or worse.
| djkeev wrote: |
Feed back?? "
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the marring at the end of the line on the right is frightening, and i personally would never install anything like that on my, or anyone elses car. the taper is also pretty sad and i doubt it would seal very well.
while i drool at the Hazet brake line flaring tool, i can't justify the astronomical price for something i would seldom use. add on top of that the time to find/buy the proper lines and the proper ends (i would not re-use old ends on new lines), the time to cut lines to length and doing the flaring, it is beyond not worth my time. it is much easier (for me personally) to make a phone call and have a full kit with correct lines/ends/flares show up at my house a few days later.
i have used numerous brake like kits from WW with zero problems.
http://wolfsburgwest.com/wolfsburg_new/brakes/bug_brake/line_kits.cfm |
Hmmmm I don't cut corners and will do what is proper which is why I'm asking for opinions. Thanks for your put down! You don't know me, you don't know the work that I do, stop making ASS sumptions.
Drop the negative attitude please. I asked for an opinion, not a critique of the work I do that you've never seen or heard about. 
I imagine I've pissed you off in some past post??
Anyway.......
The rest of your post I accept, this is what I'm looking for, objective responses and opinions on the process.
The "marring" you refer to is where the tool grips the brake line below the flange. Most of the flaking you see is the Teflon? Poly? Anti rust coating on the brake line and I agree, it needs to be cleaned up before installation. You don't want those bits in your brake fluid!
About the line marring from the tool? I've never had a problem with this over the years but I'm sure there is an ASTM (or a similar Standards agency) standard for line damage tolerances. My ASTM membership has expired and I've no really reason to renew so I can't find out what that standard might be right now.
Reusing fittings? I really think I'd rather have solid original German VW fittings than reproductions any day. New isn't often better!
I would rather spend money on the proper flare tool and do it MYSELF KNOWING that it is done correctly than purchase a set of brake lines made of unknown quality steel by an unknown person and then ASSUME that HE did a proper job of flaring the pipe.
I'm glad your after market pipes worked well for you. I searched dozens of pages on this topic and found instances where the pre-flared replacement pipes leaked badly because of poor flaring technique.
Get yourself another cup of morning Java and calm down.
Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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Last edited by djkeev on Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:39 am; edited 2 times in total |
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vaughn bros.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I live near the nascar business area and cool tools show up everywhere all the time. I picked up a mastercool flare kit about 10 years ago for $175.00. Its kinda pricey but it holds metric tubing without effort. The jaws do not dig in to the tubing nor can it slip. I also tried the 3/16 jaws and it didnt make much difference. It cant make a bad flare if you follow instructions to the letter.
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djkeev
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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djkeev
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| Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:32 am Post subject: |
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Yesterday I picked up a roll of Poly Coated 3/16 brake line. I'm going to play and experiment and see what kind of / quality of Bubble Flares I can make myself. If push comes to shove, I'll get a Bubble flare maker.
Stay tuned for Bubble Flare updates!!
BTW, in my search for Bubble flares, I came across a frightening quantity of people who have purchased double flare lines or made double flares and installed them into their VW's, just be aware that IF you have a car "restored" or "repaired" by others to make sure you've got the proper brake lines installed!
It is a very serious matter of safety, sure it isn't leaking NOW but what about during that life saving panic stop you make TOMORROW?? Will it hold?
Some of these posts were flippant...... well it doesn't leak, it must be good!
Dave
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djkeev
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drscope
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: |
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My opinion....
Why would you go through this kind of work and hassle when you can SIMPLY order a complete line kit with all the lines already made to the correct size and length?
Mid America and others carry the stainless steel lines. They FIT, they work and they look really nice. Probably the last time you will ever have to replace any of them.
A good double flair kit is nice to have around, but why try making all this stuff when it's already done for you?
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Hotrodvw
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| drscope wrote: |
My opinion....
Why would you go through this kind of work and hassle when you can SIMPLY order a complete line kit with all the lines already made to the correct size and length?
Mid America and others carry the stainless steel lines. They FIT, they work and they look really nice. Probably the last time you will ever have to replace any of them.
A good double flair kit is nice to have around, but why try making all this stuff when it's already done for you? |
BINGO!! Buy a good kit, don't waste your time and money with inferior tools. Brakes aren't anything to mess around with.
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djkeev
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bugninva
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotrodvw wrote: |
| BINGO!! Buy a good kit, don't waste your time and money with inferior tools. Brakes aren't anything to mess around with. |
pure curiosity, what kit did you buy when you did yours?
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GEX has. Just sayin
Last edited by bugninva on Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Hotrodvw
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Mine is very similar to this one........different color case. That might screw me though.
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'67 Sunroof
Eric
78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
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teuton
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| Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: |
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If you are dead set on making your own lines, don't be a half-ass. Get the proper tools and be done with it.
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Hotrodvw
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bugninva wrote: |
| Hotrodvw wrote: |
| BINGO!! Buy a good kit, don't waste your time and money with inferior tools. Brakes aren't anything to mess around with. |
pure curiosity, what kit did you buy when you did yours?
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Was your question asnwered??
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'67 Sunroof
Eric
78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
lots of money!
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bugninva
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotrodvw wrote: |
Was your question asnwered?? |
nope, but I *knew* the answer....
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Hotrodvw
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't answer your question? What answer is it that you know? Here I thought I'd impress you and such...
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Eric
78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
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crowe66
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| Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
I enjoyed making them, to each their own.
Dave |
Yeah if you buy them great but if you can make them yourself even better. It's the self satisfaction for the shadetree mechanic.
good for you Dave!
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jammor
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Brake line flaring |
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I just used The POWERBUILT 9 piece double flaring tool kit from Advance Auto Parts
Kit # 23 model 648610
$36- returnable loaner tool
Used the 3/16ths die (correct word?) on 3/16th teflon coated line (Advance Auto).
Use OIL to help die not "stick". You will use ALOT of torque on the Poly-Armour steel line
Poly-Armour Poly-Armour PVF Steel Brake Line Tubing Coil, 3/16" x 25'
4.0 star rated product | #PAC-325
$21.99-
I broke the first die thing off inside the brake line because Advance also sells a cheaper Flare kit (if you can believe that)-
If I had it to do over I'd just spend the $35 on a line kit-- Didn't want to wait on shipping
Airkewld STEEL BRAKE LINE KIT - 4860
BUT the flares I made work and don't leak! |
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