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Emergency Hazard Lights Question
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Banker
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:28 pm    Post subject: Emergency Hazard Lights Question Reply with quote

I just picked up a 74 thing and have a hazard question.

Do the hazards/flashers only work when the turn signal is on? I think the switch might be wired up wrong. I have seen the wiring diagrams so I know the correct wires are there, they just might be in the wrong spots. Can someone either shoot a pic of theirs or tell me what wire goes where?

Or do I need to have the turn signal on to make the hazards work?

Brian
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Semper_Dad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Hazard lights will should work with key off, headlights off, or turn signals off

Wiring diagrams in technical section are self explanatory. Current flow diagrams can be confusing if you're not used to them. Use this schematic. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/181_Wiring_Diagram_4-73.pdf
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks that what I thought. I found the diagram, but on my switch I don't see any numbers so I am not sure what wire goes where? I am thinking that some of the wires are crossed since it does work if the turn signal is on.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may help, You can read some of the pin connections. If you clean up the backside of your switch you may be able to see yours

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing Emergency 4-way Flasher Switch Demystified (k-mann)

Part Number 211 953 235A


The terminal designators and their wires will be listed below

Terminal Designator ~/~ Wire Color ~/~ Function

49a Black with a white/green band sends positive power to the turn signal high/low beam switch from the emergency flasher
Blue receives positive power from the 49a terminal of the emergency flasher

31 Brown (always ground in Germany) ~TUV~
Originating from the emergency flasher this ground effects the turn signals, power plug and interior light

+ White delivers positive power to the emergency flasher

30 Red with black bands delivers positive power to the entire system
from main fuse # 10

15 Green gets positive power from fuse #1

R Black with green bands delivers power to the right taillight

L Black with white bands delivers power to the left taillight

Numerous interior indicator lights are also powered by this switch including all the 73 Thing gas heater indicator lights


Last edited by kubelmann on Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Semper_Dad
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the OPs problem was that he couldn't determine which pin was which on the back of the switch.

OP
I'm pretty sure the pin designations are there, just under a bunch of grime. You need to clean up the back of the switch.

If someone could draw a layout of the switch positions I'm sure that will help the OP. I don't have an extra switch to use as a referance and I'm not going to tear out my exisiting one.

Found something else that will help. Try This, Page 6 http://www.oldvolkshome.com/hazard_switch_ovh.pdf

Please note that Pin layout for the switch is correct but the wire colors are for a bus and not correct.

EDIT:

Here is a modifed diagram showing the Thing wiring. Maybe Captain Spalding can do some cleanup and have it put in the tech section

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Last edited by Semper_Dad on Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS Guys.

All this info will be great. I'll let you know what I find out. Now it's back to work time so I can afford my thing addition.
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Captain Spalding
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Semper_Dad wrote:
Here is a modifed diagram showing the Thing wiring. Maybe Captain Spalding can do some cleanup and have it put in the tech section . . .


Well, it's never easy, is it?

At Semper Dad's suggestion I set about putting together a cleaned-up version of the diagram he posted. I decided to do a little fact checking, comparing his diagram to the wiring diagrams in the tech section. There were some discrepancies. The wiring diagrams call for an 8-pin switch, while the one in Semper Dad's image has nine pins. They are mostly the same, except that that one has two unused pins, 54 and 54f, while the other has a pin labeled 58b, which connects to the instrument lighting circuit. So I went out to my car to open up the dash. My car's emergency flasher switch has the part no. 111 953 235 G, 8 pins, and is wired with the instrument lighting circuit as per the wiring diagram in the tech section.

So which switch is correct? The 9 pin 211 953 235 A in Semper's drawing or the 111 953 235 G that is in my car? One might assume that because it corresponds correctly to the wiring diagrams in the tech section that the 111 switch in my car is correct. On the other hand, if one goes to the German Motor Works or Thing Shop web sites, they have the 211 switch for sale. I'm no stranger to these dilemmas.

This is the cleaned-up version with the 211 switch:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is a version with the 111 switch, which corresponds to my car and the wiring diagrams.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



If any of you has the 211 switch in your car, I'd be interesting in knowing if the switch knob is lighted. If so, does it come on with the headlights? Does it flash with the hazard lights when they're switched on?

If we can sort this out with any certainty, I'll finish up the drawing and ask Everett post a scalable pdf version in the tech section.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As usual Cap'n S does a epic job and adds to the RoMTOC CD's electrical inventory of easy to store/pore/use wiring data. He raises a good point that I can shed some light toward (hopefully). As will all manufacturers, VW uses stock on hand. Since the Thing was built starting in 68 and many electrical parts are from the 68-71 bus.. The Thing started life being supplied with the 211 953 235A emergency lighting switch. By 73/74 the supply of the 211 emergency switch lowered. At the same time Herr Kubel's production was transferred to Mexico. During that transitional period many "things" changed to include the use of the G version M 553 ~ 111 953 235 emergency lighting switch. Along the way, the designators for the instrument lighting terminal changed markings from 54f, 54 to 58b. As time passed and VWs responsibility ( supporting the repair of your produced product) and financial advantage (selling parts) changed and VW fell back on the 211 part for numerous applications.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kubelmann wrote:
As usual Cap'n S does a epic job and adds to the RoMTOC CD's electrical inventory . . .

Well hold on thar one minute - let's not be too hasty. I'm always happy to contribute to the RoMTOC CD, and to the Samba Tech Section, but K-mann, don't settle for these low-rez jpegs when a little patience will get you a nice hi-rez pdf.

Before I finish and submit a pdf, I want to get all the details right. So I need some questions answered. The person to answer these questions is someone who actually has a 9-pin emergency flasher switch in his Thing. Here are the questions:

1. On the 8-pin switch there is a grey/red wire that connects to terminal 58b. This terminal is for the illumination of the switch knob, and the grey/red wire carries juice to all the instrument lighting, including most of the switches. The 9-pin switch doesn't have a 58b terminal, so the question is, by what means is the switch knob illuminated? Is it supposed to have a grey/red wire attached to it? Is that wire attached at the 54 or 54f terminal? Or is the grey/red wire omitted completely, and the switch bulb energized by some other means? Or is the switch bulb never illuminated?

2. In the case of the 8 pin switch, at terminals L and R, each terminal has two wires coming to it which connect to the terminal with a single common spade connector. Is this the case with the 9 pin switch as well?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a 9 pin switch, but I believe I can answer your question if I may. Side note: DIN 72552 might be of some help with terminal designations since I believe it is what VW used for standardizing the terminal numbers.

Terminal 54 is defined as being brake lights. I looked into a 71 bus wiring diagram here on thesamba and sure enough there is a terminal on the emergency flasher labeled 54 going to the brake switches. This makes sense because the turn signal light is not separate on the taillight of buses of that vintage. So to get the rear lights to flash you needed to flash the brake lights. It looks like vw decided that the brake switches were the best means of accomplishing this. For this reason, the switch only has one wire for L and one for R because it is only flashing the front turn signals (because there aren't separate rears like stated earlier). 54f goes to the turn signal/headlamp flasher switch (not sure what it does). I suspect that the bulb doesn't get illuminated when the instrument lights are on due to the lack of any wiring going to the headlight switch (unless 54f is doing something funky in the turn signal/high beam switch).

HOWEVER, I looked at a few different language versions of both 69 and 71 181 diagrams and found a different switch (based on wiring and terminal designations alone). I found a switch that is wired similar to the 111 953 235G (minus the dash lighting wire) instead of something similar to the 211 953 235A switch. The switches that I saw in the diagrams did not use the brake lights for flashing (which makes sense given that the 181 had a separate bulb for turn signals). The were shown with doubled wires on L and R because they were going to turn signal bulbs in the front and in the taillight housings.

So this makes me wonder where the 211 953 235A switch comes into the picture. I know it is in the parts manual that I uploaded (I need to double check with my microfiche), but is it correct? I have my doubts.

Hope this helps!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incisive analysis as usual. Makes sense, that bit about only one wire coming off of L and R and another coming off of 54 to the brake lights. I doesn't make sense to me that these switches would be used in a Thing. Yet the 211 switch is what's offered as an Emergency Flasher Switch by Thing vendors. Maybe the 111 switch is unavailable, and the 211 is the most likely replacement.

Also, why would there be a bulb in the knob of the 211 switch if it doesn't light up? I've been looking for a current flow diagram with that switch configuration to get a look at the guts of the switch, but the earliest current flow diagram I could find is 1972, and that model has the 58b terminal instead of the 54/54f.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't find any 181 wire diagrams with an emergency flasher with 54/54f terminal designations. I don't believe the 181 got that flasher switch just based on the fact that the taillight housing has a separate bulb for the turn signals (no need to flash the brake lights if you have separate turn signal bulbs in the taillight housings).

I believe the knob light lights up and flashes when the switch is pulled (activating the flasher system), but I do not believe that the switch lights up (dimly) like other parts of the instrument panels when the headlight switch is pulled.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SilverThing wrote:
I believe the knob light lights up and flashes when the switch is pulled (activating the flasher system), but I do not believe that the switch lights up (dimly) like other parts of the instrument panels when the headlight switch is pulled.

My switch behaves as you describe. Given that, and looking at the current flow diagram, I don't understand the need for the gray/red wire and terminal 58b.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gray/red wire and terminal 58b light the switch up dimly when the headlight switch is pulled (dimly is the operative term - I can only see mine when it is pretty dark). I don't know if it was some sort of safety requirement for the US market or what because I don't see that terminal or those wires on hazard switches on other 181 wiring diagrams. It is not like there are enough switches on the dash that you might accidentally pull the wrong one in the dark if it weren't lit up. Pulling the wrong knob might have been more of an issue on earlier models, but they didn't have the instrument lighting wires running to the hazard switch. Confused

I am not certain what non-US models got given that the switch shown in diagrams is the same as 111 953 235G sans terminal 58b (and the associated gray/red wires), but I am starting to think the 211 953 235A part is plain wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. I just went out to the car and played around a little bit. The light in the emergency flasher switch _does_ come on with the other instrument lights. In my car, though, it's only visible if the instrument light brightness is increased almost to full by rotating the light switch knob clockwise. I get it.

So, if I wanted to do a diagram showing the wiring of the 111 switch, with an alternate wiring for the 211 switch ( as that is what's available from the major Thing vendors) the only remaining issue is whether there's a way to make the bulb in the 211 knob light up with the instrument lights. I think not.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Spalding wrote:
So, if I wanted to do a diagram showing the wiring of the 111 switch, with an alternate wiring for the 211 switch ( as that is what's available from the major Thing vendors) the only remaining issue is whether there's a way to make the bulb in the 211 knob light up with the instrument lights. I think not.


If it were me, I would show the 211 switch wire exactly the same as the 111 minus the instrument light wires. I don't think it is possible to make it light up with the other instrument lights (not that anyone would notice that feature had gone missing Laughing ). Another thing I would do is condense our little discussion down to explain the switch - note that it is missing the instrument light terminal, explain that 54 was originally intended for making the brake lights flash, etc...
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finished a drawing showing wiring for both types of switches. It's a PDF file that you can get in the Technical section under Thing Wiring.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/181_Emergency_Flasher_Wiring.pdf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Cap't Smile

I'm going to have to do a major re-wire job on Hermann, it will come in handy.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this issue was answered or not, but the terminals 54/54F on some hazard switches are only used on vehicles that have combined brake/turn signal light bulbs. I think this applies to a small number of Type 2s or for special applications. When you have a combined brake/turn bulb function on the rear (like many American cars), the rear brake-turn bulbs get a different signal than the turn-only bulbs on the front. So the hazard switch has to have separate provisions to add in the brake light signal into the turn circuit for the rear brake/turn lights. A circuit is shown at:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/hazard_switch_ovh.pdf
on page 5, Type 2, 68-69 and also 70-71.
Note that the drawing is incorrect, as it shows the L and R terminals going to the Front AND Rear turn signals. It really only goes to the front left and right turn signals. The rear turn signals get their hazard flashing signal via the 54F terminal and the column-mounted turn signal switch. When the turn signal switch is in the neutral position, and the hazard flashers are not on, then the master cylinder brake signal (54) is routed to the turn signal switch (54F), and the brake lights will come on. If the hazard warning switch is on, then a flashing signal is sent to the 54F terminal, which goes through the column-mounted turn signal switch to the rear brake lights. Terminals L and R on the hazard switch are just paralleled with the L anr R front turn signal wiring of the column-mounted turn signal switch just as in our cars, and either the turn signal switch or the hazard switch can supply power to the front turn signals via this circuit...
Probably more information than you wanted to know, but I had to research this because I wanted to put hazard flashers on an old 356 Porsche, and this switch is the easiest way to do it. Also, if you have an early beetle, or a dune buggy/sand rail with aftermarket tail lights that have a combined turn and stop filament, then this switch with the appropriate turn signal switch (such as an early beetle) would be ideal.

On another subject, some hazard switches (like mine) have the small terminal labelled 58b. This is to connect to the dash gauge illumination circuit. When the dash lights are on, the indicator bulb in the hazard switch will glow slightly, so you can find the switch in the dark. It does this by passing the 58b power through a dropping resistor to the bulb, making it glow dimmer than its normal operating brightness. It is also dimmable via the light switch dimmer. Captain Spalding's excellent schematics actually show this wiring for our 181s, and how it is interconnected inside the switch.... great job - I used this to wire my own!

If a hazard switch does not have the 58b terminal, it can still be used. If it also does not have the small dropping resistor mounted between the terminal pins, then the handle bulb will not illuminate when the hazard switch is off. If the switch has the small dropping resistor mounted between the terminal pins, and does not have the 58b terminal, it will probably steal power from the #15 ignition power to illuminate the handle dimly when the ignition is on, thus satisfying any legal safety requirments.
The ground terminal (31) on the switch is just to provide a good ground for the handle/knob bulb. If it is not connected, then the handle/bulb grounding depends upon the mounting of the switch, and the mounting of the dash panel to the body (not a very dependable ground!).

Tallman206


Last edited by tallman206 on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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