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Emergency Hazard Lights Question
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Captain Spalding
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Hazard Lights Question Reply with quote

gwh195 wrote:
Informative post - i have the nine pin 211953235A switch fitted with terminals 54, 30, 49a, +, L, R, 15, 54f, 31 (as shown in Bentley service manual from August1969 -1970 model)
I seem unable to locate this replacement switch - suppliers sell the 8 pin version 30, 49a, 49+ L R 15 31 58b. Can i use this 8 pin version and is there a wiring diagram showing how this is achieved?
I am in the UK with a 1970 American import van - help please

Let's see what we can do. What is the part number of the switch they sell?
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gwh195
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:57 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Hazard Lights Question Reply with quote

Informative post - i have the nine pin 211953235A switch fitted with terminals 54, 30, 49a, +, L, R, 15, 54f, 31 (as shown in Bentley service manual from August1969 -1970 model)
I seem unable to locate this replacement switch - suppliers sell the 8 pin version 30, 49a, 49+ L R 15 31 58b. Can i use this 8 pin version and is there a wiring diagram showing how this is achieved?
I am in the UK with a 1970 American import van - help please
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Captain Spalding
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Emergency Hazard Lights Question Reply with quote

bjthedj410 wrote:
question is if I use a toggle switch between the white wire, would that just allow me to power the hazards by toggle switch and my turnsignals would be fine. Basically im trying to use toggle switches for hazards and headlights vs the standard switches


Nope. Here's the rundown.

The red/black wire coming from fuse 10 to terminal 30 on the emergency flasher switch brings power to the switch.

The white wire going from terminal + on the emergency flasher switch carries power to the flasher relay.

The blue wire coming from terminal 49a on the flasher relay to terminal 49a on the emergency flasher switch carries the flashing signal back to the emergency flasher switch. That signal also jumpers away from terminal 49a on the emergency flasher switch to the turn signal switch via the black/green/white wire.

If you interrupt the white wire with a switch, you will deprive the flasher relay of power. When it is off, neither the turn signals nor the emergency flashers will work.

To bypass the emergency flasher switch and use a toggle switch for the emergency flashers, you want to jumper off the blue wire at the emergency flasher switch to one side of a two-pole on-off toggle switch. You have to have a jumper from one pole to the other on the same side of the switch. Then you have to connect the black/green and black/white wires that would normally be connected to terminals L and R on the emergency flasher switch to separate poles on the other side of the two pole switch. Without a two pole switch, the left and right circuits would always be connected, and when you use the turn signals lights would flash at all four corners whether left or right turn signal was connected.

HTH

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bjthedj410
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Hazard Lights Question Reply with quote

question is if I use a toggle switch between the white wire, would that just allow me to power the hazards by toggle switch and my turnsignals would be fine. Basically im trying to use toggle switches for hazards and headlights vs the standard switches
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Emergency Hazard Lights question Reply with quote

Minutiae matter. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:49 pm    Post subject: Emergency Hazard Lights question Reply with quote

I don't know if anybody else was paying attention to this thread as deeply as I did, but I came here looking for a very similar question and hopefully the answer and I FOUND it. I just spent my whole day looking for a replacement hazed/turn signal switch; thanks to this post I ended up fixing my issue. I have a 1974 Thing and when we bought it 2 months ago NOTHING worked. As with all the other problems I have dealt with such as ball joints/brake lights/seat belts, etc., ad nauseam...this post helped me figure it out. Luckily I am close to a gent that has a Steven King style VW Sematary (yes, sic) and I can find many cool parts there. I found both the 8 and 9 point switches from several different VW's and a Porsche 914 and with the diagrams found here was able to rewire the e-flasher and turn signals from the switch that I originally had (9 point). Did a rough patch for now but I was able to follow all the wires back to the fire hazard that this Thing has for a fuse box and they work and are LEGAL! Thanks everyone: Semper Dad, Capt Spalding, SilverThing, K-Mann and Tallman, as well as the original poster for asking the stupid questions only I thought I would ask! You guys are phenomenal! Hey Semper, Silver and Spalding (sounds like a law firm I used to work for) I inadvertently copied your PDF's onto some 4x7 photo paper instead of the 8x11 I was trying for, yet they turned out great as far as size and non-wipe-able glossiness. HA. I'll have to give you a glossy non-wipe-able copy when I see you.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Semper_Dad wrote:
Just tore into my dash and discovered I have the 111 953 235G switch. You can see the little resistor in the photo. I believe it's unique to the "G" switch. Also note that I have only 1 wire coming off the L and R contacts.

Interesting. Have a look under the steering column and see if there the black/green and black/white wires going into the turn signal switch are doubled.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just tore into my dash and discovered I have the 111 953 235G switch. You can see the little resistor in the photo. I believe it's unique to the "G" switch. Also note that I have only 1 wire coming off the L and R contacts.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tallman206 wrote:
The rear turn signals get their hazard flashing signal via the 54F terminal and the column-mounted turn signal switch . . .

Whew! It took me a couple of read-throughs, but I get it. Thanks.

And thanks for the kind words.

BTW everyone, Tallman and SilverThing deserve a lot of credit for the wiring diagrams in the tech section. Each of them patiently endured endless droning back-and-forth private message binges and helped me wrap my head around the "why" of it all. Answered about a thousand questions each. Homeric.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this issue was answered or not, but the terminals 54/54F on some hazard switches are only used on vehicles that have combined brake/turn signal light bulbs. I think this applies to a small number of Type 2s or for special applications. When you have a combined brake/turn bulb function on the rear (like many American cars), the rear brake-turn bulbs get a different signal than the turn-only bulbs on the front. So the hazard switch has to have separate provisions to add in the brake light signal into the turn circuit for the rear brake/turn lights. A circuit is shown at:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/hazard_switch_ovh.pdf
on page 5, Type 2, 68-69 and also 70-71.
Note that the drawing is incorrect, as it shows the L and R terminals going to the Front AND Rear turn signals. It really only goes to the front left and right turn signals. The rear turn signals get their hazard flashing signal via the 54F terminal and the column-mounted turn signal switch. When the turn signal switch is in the neutral position, and the hazard flashers are not on, then the master cylinder brake signal (54) is routed to the turn signal switch (54F), and the brake lights will come on. If the hazard warning switch is on, then a flashing signal is sent to the 54F terminal, which goes through the column-mounted turn signal switch to the rear brake lights. Terminals L and R on the hazard switch are just paralleled with the L anr R front turn signal wiring of the column-mounted turn signal switch just as in our cars, and either the turn signal switch or the hazard switch can supply power to the front turn signals via this circuit...
Probably more information than you wanted to know, but I had to research this because I wanted to put hazard flashers on an old 356 Porsche, and this switch is the easiest way to do it. Also, if you have an early beetle, or a dune buggy/sand rail with aftermarket tail lights that have a combined turn and stop filament, then this switch with the appropriate turn signal switch (such as an early beetle) would be ideal.

On another subject, some hazard switches (like mine) have the small terminal labelled 58b. This is to connect to the dash gauge illumination circuit. When the dash lights are on, the indicator bulb in the hazard switch will glow slightly, so you can find the switch in the dark. It does this by passing the 58b power through a dropping resistor to the bulb, making it glow dimmer than its normal operating brightness. It is also dimmable via the light switch dimmer. Captain Spalding's excellent schematics actually show this wiring for our 181s, and how it is interconnected inside the switch.... great job - I used this to wire my own!

If a hazard switch does not have the 58b terminal, it can still be used. If it also does not have the small dropping resistor mounted between the terminal pins, then the handle bulb will not illuminate when the hazard switch is off. If the switch has the small dropping resistor mounted between the terminal pins, and does not have the 58b terminal, it will probably steal power from the #15 ignition power to illuminate the handle dimly when the ignition is on, thus satisfying any legal safety requirments.
The ground terminal (31) on the switch is just to provide a good ground for the handle/knob bulb. If it is not connected, then the handle/bulb grounding depends upon the mounting of the switch, and the mounting of the dash panel to the body (not a very dependable ground!).

Tallman206


Last edited by tallman206 on Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Cap't Smile

I'm going to have to do a major re-wire job on Hermann, it will come in handy.

BNMike
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Captain Spalding
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finished a drawing showing wiring for both types of switches. It's a PDF file that you can get in the Technical section under Thing Wiring.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/181_Emergency_Flasher_Wiring.pdf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Captain Spalding wrote:
So, if I wanted to do a diagram showing the wiring of the 111 switch, with an alternate wiring for the 211 switch ( as that is what's available from the major Thing vendors) the only remaining issue is whether there's a way to make the bulb in the 211 knob light up with the instrument lights. I think not.


If it were me, I would show the 211 switch wire exactly the same as the 111 minus the instrument light wires. I don't think it is possible to make it light up with the other instrument lights (not that anyone would notice that feature had gone missing Laughing ). Another thing I would do is condense our little discussion down to explain the switch - note that it is missing the instrument light terminal, explain that 54 was originally intended for making the brake lights flash, etc...
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. I just went out to the car and played around a little bit. The light in the emergency flasher switch _does_ come on with the other instrument lights. In my car, though, it's only visible if the instrument light brightness is increased almost to full by rotating the light switch knob clockwise. I get it.

So, if I wanted to do a diagram showing the wiring of the 111 switch, with an alternate wiring for the 211 switch ( as that is what's available from the major Thing vendors) the only remaining issue is whether there's a way to make the bulb in the 211 knob light up with the instrument lights. I think not.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gray/red wire and terminal 58b light the switch up dimly when the headlight switch is pulled (dimly is the operative term - I can only see mine when it is pretty dark). I don't know if it was some sort of safety requirement for the US market or what because I don't see that terminal or those wires on hazard switches on other 181 wiring diagrams. It is not like there are enough switches on the dash that you might accidentally pull the wrong one in the dark if it weren't lit up. Pulling the wrong knob might have been more of an issue on earlier models, but they didn't have the instrument lighting wires running to the hazard switch. Confused

I am not certain what non-US models got given that the switch shown in diagrams is the same as 111 953 235G sans terminal 58b (and the associated gray/red wires), but I am starting to think the 211 953 235A part is plain wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SilverThing wrote:
I believe the knob light lights up and flashes when the switch is pulled (activating the flasher system), but I do not believe that the switch lights up (dimly) like other parts of the instrument panels when the headlight switch is pulled.

My switch behaves as you describe. Given that, and looking at the current flow diagram, I don't understand the need for the gray/red wire and terminal 58b.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't find any 181 wire diagrams with an emergency flasher with 54/54f terminal designations. I don't believe the 181 got that flasher switch just based on the fact that the taillight housing has a separate bulb for the turn signals (no need to flash the brake lights if you have separate turn signal bulbs in the taillight housings).

I believe the knob light lights up and flashes when the switch is pulled (activating the flasher system), but I do not believe that the switch lights up (dimly) like other parts of the instrument panels when the headlight switch is pulled.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incisive analysis as usual. Makes sense, that bit about only one wire coming off of L and R and another coming off of 54 to the brake lights. I doesn't make sense to me that these switches would be used in a Thing. Yet the 211 switch is what's offered as an Emergency Flasher Switch by Thing vendors. Maybe the 111 switch is unavailable, and the 211 is the most likely replacement.

Also, why would there be a bulb in the knob of the 211 switch if it doesn't light up? I've been looking for a current flow diagram with that switch configuration to get a look at the guts of the switch, but the earliest current flow diagram I could find is 1972, and that model has the 58b terminal instead of the 54/54f.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a 9 pin switch, but I believe I can answer your question if I may. Side note: DIN 72552 might be of some help with terminal designations since I believe it is what VW used for standardizing the terminal numbers.

Terminal 54 is defined as being brake lights. I looked into a 71 bus wiring diagram here on thesamba and sure enough there is a terminal on the emergency flasher labeled 54 going to the brake switches. This makes sense because the turn signal light is not separate on the taillight of buses of that vintage. So to get the rear lights to flash you needed to flash the brake lights. It looks like vw decided that the brake switches were the best means of accomplishing this. For this reason, the switch only has one wire for L and one for R because it is only flashing the front turn signals (because there aren't separate rears like stated earlier). 54f goes to the turn signal/headlamp flasher switch (not sure what it does). I suspect that the bulb doesn't get illuminated when the instrument lights are on due to the lack of any wiring going to the headlight switch (unless 54f is doing something funky in the turn signal/high beam switch).

HOWEVER, I looked at a few different language versions of both 69 and 71 181 diagrams and found a different switch (based on wiring and terminal designations alone). I found a switch that is wired similar to the 111 953 235G (minus the dash lighting wire) instead of something similar to the 211 953 235A switch. The switches that I saw in the diagrams did not use the brake lights for flashing (which makes sense given that the 181 had a separate bulb for turn signals). The were shown with doubled wires on L and R because they were going to turn signal bulbs in the front and in the taillight housings.

So this makes me wonder where the 211 953 235A switch comes into the picture. I know it is in the parts manual that I uploaded (I need to double check with my microfiche), but is it correct? I have my doubts.

Hope this helps!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kubelmann wrote:
As usual Cap'n S does a epic job and adds to the RoMTOC CD's electrical inventory . . .

Well hold on thar one minute - let's not be too hasty. I'm always happy to contribute to the RoMTOC CD, and to the Samba Tech Section, but K-mann, don't settle for these low-rez jpegs when a little patience will get you a nice hi-rez pdf.

Before I finish and submit a pdf, I want to get all the details right. So I need some questions answered. The person to answer these questions is someone who actually has a 9-pin emergency flasher switch in his Thing. Here are the questions:

1. On the 8-pin switch there is a grey/red wire that connects to terminal 58b. This terminal is for the illumination of the switch knob, and the grey/red wire carries juice to all the instrument lighting, including most of the switches. The 9-pin switch doesn't have a 58b terminal, so the question is, by what means is the switch knob illuminated? Is it supposed to have a grey/red wire attached to it? Is that wire attached at the 54 or 54f terminal? Or is the grey/red wire omitted completely, and the switch bulb energized by some other means? Or is the switch bulb never illuminated?

2. In the case of the 8 pin switch, at terminals L and R, each terminal has two wires coming to it which connect to the terminal with a single common spade connector. Is this the case with the 9 pin switch as well?
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