Has anybody ever made money selling a buggy or kit car?

[wythac]

I'm going to rant here a little and see what kind of fire that draws;

Every once in awhile I go over into the classifieds and just poke around to see what people are selling buggies for. Here is sort of a "Cliff's Notes" informal guide to what I see there;

$500-1500= basket cases, a good cheap starting point for a guy who is going to tear it all apart and rebuild it anyway

$1500-3500= drivers that require either mechanical or cosmetic work, or both.

$3500-5500=some resonable cars that have been well put together in the past, or not so well put together in the present, but cosmetically pretty good with no real frills. Some Manx bodies with basket case pans end up here too.

$5500-8500= This is the real interesting price range...you have some folks that have put a lot of time into their cars that feel that this time should be worth an increase in value to the car. This is true in some cases, not in others. Also in this range are the people who really don't have any idea what the car is worth, so they price it super high. In some cases, I think they were simply super high when they posted the ad.

8500+=Professional builders, big offroad cars, and show quality buggies live up here.

Now the punchline; I don't see how any private owner of one of these cars could ever make money selling it. Even if I discounted my time to ZERO, what I could get for my car fall short of what I spent by a significant sum. I think that would be the case even if it were a Manx bodied car....

Mind you, I am not complaining. I am simply pointing out that we must all be in this for the love of building and driving them, 'cause we SAS ain't in it for the dough........

So, my friends, tell me I am wrong and that you made or make money on the sale of your FG kit car. Then tell me the name of your accountant, as I may wish to hire him.

[didget69]

As always - I'll put in a disclaimer:

My OPINION is that anyone looking to take an average buggy and look at it as an investment is delusional.

There - I said it.

It's a car - YES, it may be your skinned knuckles, sweat, and blood poured into it, but how can you assign a value to the time put into the build? My time is priceless; I cannot make more time. Once the time is spent, it's gone. The price of anything is only as high as another person will offer you for it.

I have seen project buggies in clapped-out condition, no motor / trans, rotted out chassis, etc., that sellers are asking $1200 to $1500 for - and they don't sell - and I'm not amazed. They obviously don't get the fact that the price is too high; this is obvious when the Samba ads have been listing said car for over a year...

bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door.

[wythac]

I was looking in the ads tonight and saw a few examples of the delusions of which you speak. I know that some of the variation can be attributed to where in the world the car is....I'm out in the Western US, where I think about 10 million beetles came to die, so perhaps my price scale is low. I should point out that I am a disinterested observer...I don't have plans for another project, so I am not looking for a car, project or otherwise.

While I saved reciepts for most of the major hardware for my car, I have I am sure a few thousands in supplies, and fuel to obtain them, along with hundreds of hours my time, discounted to zero. Fortunately for us, and for these little cars, few of us actually consider the cost effectiveness of what we build...if we did, many more of these cars would be in the landfill rather than on the highway.

[Wolfgangdieter]

It's a hobby! Some like to fish from boats --- add up the costs there if you want expensive hobby! Boat, slip, fuel, maintenance, gear, bait --- beer. Golf ditto. Unless you buy at a distress sale (divorce, death,bankrupcy, disease) and immediately resell you won't see a nickle profit. Current economy doesn't help one bit - buying old cars probably better than putting cash in bank at .5% interest. Or investing in stocks or land even.
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CMC '57 Porsche Speedster Replica and Dolphin boat tailed full pan VW MOD-T Street Buggy

[andk5591]

Unless you are well connected and/or damn lucky, its hard to make money on any old VW as well as most classic cars that you restore. I seriously pondered flipping cars for a while, but my problem is that I do stuff right, so it costs money.

I was recently looking at a fairly decent 74 standard that was going cheap. I did a spread sheet with a "worse case" list of thing it would need and I would have about $6000 in the car without my labor. Yeah, I know - there's folks that say "I picked up a 56 bug for $75 and it won at Pebble Beach and only had to put $3.22 in it".

Anyway - do because you like it, do it because you are having fun. Doing it for the money is not it.
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D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[LouisB]

One of the problems is that buggies are just not worth all that much but they still cost as much as any other VW to build/restore.

--louis
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Louis Brooks
'67 Manx II

Old people at weddings always poke me and say "Your next." So, I started doing the same to them at funerals.

[73SpeedBuggy]

I sold my last one $6k, which was more money than I put into it. However, from a business perspective it's not really a profit when you calculate all the time I put into it.
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Manxter #39 on a 1971 Pan
Turbo-charged Subaru EJ25D (DOHC)
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3923620/1971-volkswagen-beetle#

-Adam

[Q-Dog]

Your observarions hold true in the hot rod world too.
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Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle

[jbreddawg]

I have bought and flipped a couple of bugs and made some money. Not alot mind you but some.
A buggy is a whole nother story. There toys not "real cars" so I think people are less willing to spend alot of money on them unless their getting the best there is available.
I suppose you could buy some junker and wire tie and bondo it back together over a few weekends and make a few dollars but whats your time worth to you ?

I agree with the some people are high statement. I have watched buggies on here that I would consider 1500-3000 buggies get a new elcheapo crate engine,lots of chrome and a paint jop end up in the classifieds for 10 grand lol Yea,good luck with that.

8500 will get you ALOT of buggy. But if you take notice only a few ever actually have nice built up engines. I have seen some 1915's ,1776's and just a couple bigger then that but for the majority it's 1600 or 1641's .

I'll probably have 10 grand into mine and could sell it for 5 if I'm lucky but thats ok cause I dont really have plans on selling it anytime soon
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The wheel may be turning but the hamster's dead !

[gr8cobbler]

I've seen situations where the sum of the parts exceeds the value of the whole. I've parted out machines and topped or covered my cost and was able to keep some parts I needed. That can become a hobby in itself. The another way to make a clean profit is by adding knowledge to a siutuation, turning someone's lack of knowledge/skill/time into a value added proposition.

Chance favors the prepared mind......doesn't hurt to have the tools, understanding wife, parking spaces and lax HOA....
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Gary

Being a cheap old fart is just a front for my actual lack of money.

[Wetstuff]

Funny you bring this up Wy...

Friday I get a call; "Jose has a real Manx for sale $500." Jose had this car for the last few months - about 2mi from me. (mind you I had been looking for a couple of months and finally found/bought a good one in OH..)

My mind races: 'Flipping time!' I hook up with Jose on Sat. afternoon. The story got confused in the retelling; Jose bought some other buggy for $500 ...the Manx was for sale for $700.

Chassis (no title) .. new pans .. tranny but no engine ..no windshield .. dash empty and cracked .. Manx roll bar .. body was OK. There were a couple of holes cut into the rear tub, but that was simple glasswork. The key: all the fenders were intact, hood OK with center filler and it had the Meyers number tag. "I'll take it."

Yesterday afternoon after scouring the classifieds here, I called Jose and said; 'Sorry, I will not be buying it." I explained, that even tho' a brand new body kit was $5k .. there were a flood of <$1,000. projects already out there. One in the classifieds was completely ready to mount for $1,000.

Frankly, had I not already bought a pretty good one - I would now have bought a new chassis, a ready-body like the one in the ads, etc. I think I could end up with an excellent example at the lower end of that $5500-8500. scale.

Jim

FYI: 2hr drive from D.C., Phila, Norfolk there is a $700 Manx available..

[Derek Cobb]

[Letterman7]

Between the Sterling and the Manx Sr I sold, I only made good money on the Sterling. I'm not going to say how much, but lets say it more than covered the initial purchase price and the subsequent rehabilitation. The SR... for some reason that one I almost couldn't give away. I knew I wasn't going to make anything off it; I was selling due to an equipment failure in my office and I needed fast cash. But even then, I sold it for less than a third of what I had invested into it. I later found out the seller re-sold it a year later for more than it was bought for... figures.
But in general, from what I've seen, east coast cars seem to be able to bring slightly higher prices than the west coast due to their relative "rarity". Outside of the Cobra and Benz replicas, one just doesn't see a true old style kit car with any regularity. Dune buggies are far more common, even though you'll rarely see them outside of a show on the street. Now, I'm speaking from an eastern PA point of view - your visions may vary state to state.
And Brian has it right - to see a kit or buggy as an investment is foolish. How many times have you looked at a Craigslist ad and saw a Bradley for sale that the owner has in capital letters "RARE!!"? For most folks in the VW community or have at least a passing knowledge of aircooled cars and history, we "know" the relative values of the average kit or buggy. Like dawg said, knowlegeable buyers will look for the superior car - perfect bodywork, nicely built engine and drivetrain, all the little goodies that make the car special. That's where the money will be spent, not on an Earl Shibe paint job and a set of 18's....

[MURZI]

Document your build here on the samba and your car can establish a bloodline or pedigree. The build story adds value when the build is done right. Use top line parts on the accessories and the car will bring the money. Cheap wheels or gauges scream cheap and may set the tone for the whole car. Attention to details also add value. How was the wiring done? What does the chassis look like?? I would only buy a buggy from a select few that I have seen build a buggy. High build standards will bring the money as there is always someone with 12-15k of front pocket money. What is big money for some is chump change to others. Doesn't look like mendola is having any trouble selling thier big money rides. Why?? The cars are quality from ground up and not pep boys fashion models.
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62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam

[slalombuggy]

The last buggy I sold I made a decent profit t. I documented the build so the buyer could see that it was put together right. Took before and after photos of everything no matter how ugly. More than anything the completely rebuilt suspension and brakes added valve to the car. I left it in primer so the buyer could do what they want. Sold it for enough money to buld a complete 2332. I had the case, the buggy profits provided the rest. I thinks it's like a house. If you give it a good foundation and skip all the trinkets that aren't to everyones taste anyways you should walk away with a good profit. Simple, but clean = profit.

brad

[Wetstuff]

Brad makes a good point to sellers: "I left it in primer so the buyer could do what they want."

I looked -at a distance- a really nice resto in TN. It appeared the guy did beautiful work .. the price was great for all his efforts .. but the color he shot made it look like a polished Copper, flower pot. It would have been the first car my wife would have let me park it in the front yard - so she could plant it.

Jim

[jspbtown]

Not including my time I have made money on every buggy/kit I have ever built.

I don't count my time because I don't build them as a business...I build them for enjoyment. The agreement with the wife is that I can keep on doing them as long as it doesn't take away from the important things in life (shelter, food, college savings, retuirement savings, etc).

I keep very detailed spreadsheets and include eveything I use in the build including tools. My Manx had a new compressor added in. My Sterling had my welder built in. So even if I break even I have usually acquired some nice new tool at least.

It helps that I do everything on the build from welding to bodywork and paint. If I had to farm anything out it would definitely change things.

And I don't make alot. Far from it.

[eaterofdog]

I could turn a 500-1000 profit on my buggy. I did buy it for 1/3 less than typical market due to some inexpensive mech issues and a desperate seller. It runs and drives excellent now and looks pretty good too.
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[tcarter]

I would think that i could make a profit on my buggy even though i bought it for 4900. It's been turned inside out and looks pretty good. I had body work done and it painted. The engine (SP 15xx) it had was in pretty good shape but i popped the oil cooler/seals and sold it for 1k. Had a engine built by A.C. with Dyno, Dyno video and spread sheet of parts. What I did when i bought it was start a big three ring binder with receipts of parts so when i add it up it will probably come out to more that I would ever ask for it but if it comes down to it you can part the buggy/engine and come out on top or break even. So i tend to agree that if you keep it simple and nice you can not suffer a complete lost. Without the purchase of the engine I would be able to say i know i will come out on top.

[VOLKSWAGNUT]

I have found the only way to make money on any VW (or kit car) is to find and buy ones under 500 and either immediatly flip them or part them out. Few and far between any more. If you try to resurrect them into at least a running driver you will spend more than the car will bring in the end. One more thing to note you never add up your labor. If you do dont plan on even breaking even. Consider it free investment for the enjoyment of your hobby.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
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