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Das Dragon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valve clearance is checked on the back of the cam not on the lobe that wears out when a cam goings flat.
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ssmalibu2
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"no gap" might be an exageration. I should prolly have said, nearly closed gap. They did jiggle just a little, but not .006

With a flat cam the valves would be loose and make a lot of noise.
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detroitjohnny
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Das Dragon wrote:
Valve clearance is checked on the back of the cam not on the lobe that wears out when a cam goings flat.


yeah.... not really sure how knocking the top/high end of a cam lobe would make the valves loose. valves are closed when you set lash, thus no pressure on that part of the lobe.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The other item not yet in evidence is there is oil spray all over the engine compartment now. I removed the oil cap while it was running and a strong chugging puffing of vapor came out and continued.


sounds like pistons scuffing but that would be mostly aluminum. That failure comes quickly and has color like that but it is not magnetic. Oil is from blowby if that is it. Timing plays a big part if it is.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know this is a real bummer.
Seems like Priss followed the "better safe than sorry" strategy, pro built, special oil, keeping it mild and all that.
And murphy strikes anyway. Just isn't fair.

Meanwhile I got my engine sealed with ketchup, using leftover oil I get for free, pegging the speedo on retread tires with a patched sidewall puncture mounted on wheels I welded together myself back when I wasn't a good welder. And nothing goes wrong?!

I guess my point is, according to the law of averages you should buy a lottery ticket right away(your gonna win), and I should be struck by lightning any second!
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bugninva
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detroitjohnny wrote:
Das Dragon wrote:
Valve clearance is checked on the back of the cam not on the lobe that wears out when a cam goings flat.


yeah.... not really sure how knocking the top/high end of a cam lobe would make the valves loose. valves are closed when you set lash, thus no pressure on that part of the lobe.


flatening of a cam lobe wouldn't make the valves loose, however, it seems typical that when a lobe starts going it takes out the lifter head too, which will cause larger valve lash... but without an inspection on the OP's part, it's hard to tell...

I'm betting it bearing material and the metalic part that didn't wash away is the thrust shims grinding away...... check crank freeplay...
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so you had how many miles on the oil???? break in cam 45 min, change oil & filter,run another hour change the oil & filter.let set for 24 hours ajust valves.run for about a day or two at the max.change the oil& filter.then again after 30 days.if it neesd a valve ajustment do it and another oil& filterchange/oil & filters are cheep.
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RockCrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugninva wrote:
flatening of a cam lobe wouldn't make the valves loose, however, it seems typical that when a lobe starts going it takes out the lifter head too, which will cause larger valve lash... but without an inspection on the OP's part, it's hard to tell...
You beat me to it. Usually, the lifter shows the first signs.
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detroitjohnny
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, that makes more sense.
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RockCrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detroitjohnny wrote:
ok, that makes more sense.
The OP is not in one of those not quite running right areas....he has a serious mechanical issue so if the cam or lifters were just beginning to go he probably wouldn't notice except the lash would be getting loose....not tight. As bad as the crap was in the pic he posted he would surely see some really loose rockers by now if that was it. You can have a pretty far wiped lobe and the lifter may just be cupped a little but you would still know it from the lash settings.
I've seen barely cupped lifters on an almost perfectly round lobe and I've seen really horribly torn up lifters on a lobe that looked not too far gone yet but it always lead to loose lash.
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priss
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit more diagnostic evidence, i dont know what its worth.

Today i figured i would change out the glittery oil, it cant possibly be doing any good anyway. I put some industrial magnets on the sump plate to hopefully catch some of the debris. I havent pulled the plate off yet, i needed a break, its cold out there.

While waiting for the engine to heat up i looked around it with my Raytec ranged thermometer and found some interesting readings. The temp at the heads right before the exaust had very differant readings from 1-2 and 3-4 sides. Engine has been runnig 20 minutes at idle, no load, 1100 rpm or so by the tach, temp at oil pump cover and bottom plate and filter hose att 130f

#3cyl 120
#4cyl 140
#1cyl 175
#2cyl 185

The only differance between the 2 sides is the 1-2 has an old heater box and the 3-4 has a new one. The temp at the valve covers is simillarly differant, as is the heat coming out the floor vents. 78 driver, 140 passenger.
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priss
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Big chunks are magnetic, dust is a mixture
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Das Dragon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were you I wouldn't run it anymore. Time to pull the engine and disassemble. The more you run it the more pieces are going through the bearings, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Das Dragon wrote:
If I were you I wouldn't run it anymore. Time to pull the engine and disassemble. The more you run it the more pieces are going through the bearings, etc.


call it a day. Time to split the case. There is nothing in the engine capable of producing ferrous pieces that large that doesn't go catastrophic when it completly fails. That could be remnants of a nut that came off something and got wedged into a place it shouldn't of. It could be a lifter that was too brittle and cracked. It could even be the crank failing or teeth on the cam gear.
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Caveat: I am not telling you what to, or what not to do. When a suggestion is offered, it is wishing you the best, and is based on my experiences as a mechanic, automotive machinist, and from racing in the era your bus came to life. My only goal is to share what has been learned on my path. Smile

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priss
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last bits of information and i am done. The case pressure is really high, and makes the oil cap bounce up and down if you hold it loose with your finger. White smoke or vapor of some kind puffs out of it like a steam engine, and there is a white paste stuck all over the cap and the inside of the filler neck(no vulgar jokes please).

I took it for another5 minute spin after the oil change. The pressure is at 40, then i accelerate, shift, the rpms drop and the pressure goes to 0 and the light comes on, then after a second or so it starts to rise up to 40 again. Does that every time i shift.

There is no power even in 3rd now, and wont rev even with no load over 3500. The head temperature differance is now 100 degrees hotter on the 1-2 side, which is reading 240 at side next to the exhaust flange nuts. #1 exhaust pipe before entering the heater box reads 550.

Yeah, I know its beyond my abilty to repair.

This really sucks.

1500 miles on a brand new long block. And what do i do now. I cant take it all apart and send it back to CA. I live in an apartment, I have to be able to move the car if it snows or they will tow it away. I could tow it to a local and well revered VW mechanic and engine builder, who i wasnt aware of when i ordered this engine. Then pay them to pull it all apart and rebuild it? hOping they do it more right then the last person who had a great reputation. Same POS parts available i suppose no matter where you go there are stories of part failure and warrenty service no matter how good the mechanic is. I am into this car for close $9k purchace and parts and its not painted and now doesnt even run.

Starting to sound like i am whinning now so i will stop.

I will continue to document whats going on. It may prove helpfull to someone in the future. If it turns out to be my stupid fault, or a crappy part, or builder error, all i want is the truth.

Whatever, Like Modok so cleary stated. Did it all right, still went wrong, such is my life, and it really SUCKS.
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mightymouse
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dont let it get to you. There is a proper explanation for what happened. Its going to be 1 of 3 things. Part failure, which is out of your hands. Jetted too lean, which depending on who installed the carb and tuned it could be your deal. Or timing off, either too advanced or too retarded... dist could have failed, or you didnt set timing correctly.

If it still runs, i would go with the local guru you just found out about.
Is he really THAT good? At least if he can check timing and then see what jetting you have, while looking at what parts are damaged he should be able to tell you what went wrong quite easily. IF he has a clue.

Wish i lived closer id give you a hand.
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andk5591 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel for you - been there done that. The thing is that crap can happen. A few years ago I had a "professionally" built 1600 turn key. Had some serious issues that popped up within a month or so - I still feel they screwed up, but they worked with me (kind of) and I ended up with a kit to build my own 1914 - with addional money spent.....

Had 2 trannies built at the same time by who I thought was a good shop. One was and still is very good, but on the other one they used a really crappy core - had a lot of corrosion where the flange seals - or should I say - didnt seal. They would not fix it. I did eventually get it fixed with the help of a good friend.

Had another tranny built by a truly, very well respected shop. Had issues, but they replaced it. Of course I had to eat my own labor to do the swap.

Bottom line is that shit happens. It happens to most of us one time or another. I know that you are pissed, bummed, confused, disgusted and tired. You'll get past it. Step back for a day and collect your wits. Stop running the engine - Its not going heal itself - you are only hurting it more. Come up with a plan and then move forward. It'll work out - will probably cost you some money, but you will get past this. I mean - hell, you gotta be a glutton for punishment if you own one of these things LOL. I have 4.
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RockCrusher
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andk5591 wrote:
Stop running the engine - Its not going heal itself - you are only hurting it more.
He could rev the piss out of it repeatedly. I've seen plenty of people who believe this will fix whatever the problem is from tuneups to spun bearings...... Laughing I also love the guys who give it a good quick accelerator pump shot and then turn the key off. Who ever came up with that brilliant plan?

When you go to the local guru for the tear down be sure to have him take good pics of all the relevant damage as you MIGHT be able to get some help from the original builder.

RC
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priss
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mightymouse, thanks for the offer, and for the advise you have given so freely in other peoples threads. Your posts provided much of the support i needed for the 1699 decision.

The local guru is Stan's Classic Service and he is a member here.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=614073
I will call him today and see what he might be able to do. He is connected with Suburban Engine Exchange
http://www.suburbanengine.com/
Where, perhaps, i should have purchased the engine in the first place. If they will provide pictures that would be great. I will ask but i dont want to interfere with thier process.

The original builder is still answering my questions and being as helpfull as possible from 3000 miles away. It would not be fair to say who it is or anything good or ill about them till i have an answer, and a resoulution.

Guess i am getting my moneys worth out of that tow bar i bought.
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cmiller95
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading this topic and could your cam have shaved off the end of the oil pump. You oil pump could be malfunctioning from that and could cause the pressure drop.

Link : http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=226483&highlight=glittery+oil
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