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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:06 pm Post subject: Type 4 Timing questions / is this correct? |
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hey everyone!
just got my motor running again after a ton of issues with bearings... now i am trying to get everything timed right so i can start driving it.
i have been dealing with some issues trying to time the engine and am not sure if i am doing something completely wrong OR the fact that the motor is built from 3 seperate motors is not helping me.
its a Type 4 EA motor. 73 with FI. 007 dual vacume dist.
-points adjusted to spec in manual
-all new hoses with clamps to avoid vacume leaks.
-installed fuel pressure guage. running perfect 28-30psi.
-adjusted valves and everything properly, and the motor started right up and idled no problem. Idle is a bit high (1200-1700 rpm)climbs as it warms
-idle adjuster screw is ALL THE WAY IN (dont know why)
-ecu mixture knob was turned all the way to the right (22 clicks.) when centered idle climbs.
-all new injector seals, gaskets etc.
I thought timing may be contributing to the high idle. tried to adjust as per green manual BUT manual says 5* ATDC at idle 950rpm. I CANT GET 950 rpm it seems.
tried my best to tweak timing by rotating dist. when the mark on the fan is in the notch (as stated by book with vacume hooked up) idle is high 1500rpm. i realize this is wrong.
realizing im doing something wrong i searched online... didnt find anything too helpful so what would be my next step?
i did find the distributor page, with specifics for each distributor. it says to time 007 to 28*BTDC at 2000 rpm w/ disconected vac i believe. i have no fan notch there to go by. the fan has a red line at 5* ATDC (maybe not orig fan?)
how does one adjust timing to 28*? i have a scale and put a mark on the fan at tdc. is there any special way? (to clarify i am using a timing light)
i realize i should back the idle adjust screw out 2.5 ish turns and center my ecu knob before timing right? the joys of second hand parts...
any help would be appreciated.
Last edited by XPafiolis on Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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take a photo of your engine. I show AE code to be a T1 engine from about 1971.
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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i apologize my typing error. its a EA type 4 motor!
one of 3 originally looking like this
now looking similar to this
i will clarify for those who are confused, i had 3 motors to pick parts from, a 914 1.7 and 2 411/412 type 4 1.7L's
i used the top mount oil filler for my convenience from the porsche and the dipstick from the 411/412. the crank case and pistons /heads is all from the 411' 1.7. |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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EA, that makes more sense.
Do you have a scale like this either in plastic or metal?
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| yes! last photo red dot at 5* |
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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that engine is timed through the hole in the fan shroud.
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| yes i used the hole in the fan shroud, but the fan only has a mark at 0 and a red line at 5ATDC, according to the dist. (007) it needs to be timed at 28 BTDC w/no vac hose? im thinking wrong fan or somethings amis? |
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| im curious how do i make a new mark on the outer edge of my fan? to i just line it up to TDC then make a mark at the top for use with the scale? OR do i Put it in TDC, then mark it at 0 on the scale? |
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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maybe i am mistaken... maybe my fan marking is not 5*.
there is a line at 0, then an inch approx to the right is a red line. then at 180 from top is another red line. |
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josh
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Joined: July 13, 2003
Posts: 1773
Location: laid back in the tall grass
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 Timing questions / is this correct? |
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| XPafiolis wrote: |
tch there to go by. the fan has a red line at 5* ATDC (maybe not orig fan?)
how does one adjust timing to 28*? i have a scale and put a mark on the fan at tdc. is there any special way? (to clarify i am using a timing light)
i realize i should back the idle adjust screw out 2.5 ish turns and center my ecu knob before timing right? the joys of second hand parts...
any help would be appreciated. |
Pretty simple really.
1. remove and plug the vacuum hoses.
2. loosen distributor clamp enough to rotate and hook up timing light.
3. start the engine.
4. shine the timing light on the mark. Now bring up the engine revs and watch how the timing mark moves. You want that mark to stop at 28* BTDC. That means you have 28* Total Mechanical Advance. You adjust timing like you always do, by twisting the distributor. Set it so that when the engine revs up it advances to 28* and no more.
5. Tighten the distributor clamp and recheck
My $.02 is that this is the best way to time the engine for your app. The stock timing for that distributor may put it at 32* Total Mechanical Advance. That may have been fine for the lighter car the engine came with, but too much for a bus. Especially considering that these engines have more compression than a bus engine.
You should set the timing before you do any other tuning(assuming you have already set point gap/dwell). Once it's set the other stuff you do won't change it. Any tuning you do before setting the timing is pretty much worthless.
Once it's timed and running I would look up posts from Raygreenwood here and at shoptalkforums. He has a lot of ideas on tuning type4 engines with D-jet.
Also since this is a high compression engine I would always use premium fuel and never ever lug it.
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| modok wrote: |
...If If stoner A takes a hit and then stoner B goes right away(not waiting two seconds), he's trying to suck on it while it's still got a vaccum, doesen't get much of a hit at all! Cause it hasn't filled back up all the way yet.
Stoner A is cylinders #2/4 B is #1/3 The plugged bowl is the throttle, the bong is the manifold |
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josh
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Joined: July 13, 2003
Posts: 1773
Location: laid back in the tall grass
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| XPafiolis wrote: |
maybe i am mistaken... maybe my fan marking is not 5*.
there is a line at 0, then an inch approx to the right is a red line. then at 180 from top is another red line. |
If the mark has a Zero on it that's top dead center. With that mark lined up exactly, make a mark on the pulley that lines up with zero on the timing scale.
If not..
The 180* off mark is almost certainly TDC for #s 2 and 4. If you want to be sure of which mark is TDC #1 you could remove the fan and use a flexible tape measure to measure from TDC 2 and 4 mark to the TDC 1 and 3 mark.
Measure from the 180* off mark both clockwise and counter clockwise. The measurement to the TDC mark should be exactly the same no matter which way you measure. The other mark should be off by some fraction of an inch.
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| modok wrote: |
...If If stoner A takes a hit and then stoner B goes right away(not waiting two seconds), he's trying to suck on it while it's still got a vaccum, doesen't get much of a hit at all! Cause it hasn't filled back up all the way yet.
Stoner A is cylinders #2/4 B is #1/3 The plugged bowl is the throttle, the bong is the manifold |
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Wildthings
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Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| A Type 4 engine out of a 411/412 most likely have had a "0" mark at top dead center and a "I" mark at 27° BTDC. I assume the same would have been true for a Porsche engine. Do as Josh recommended and align the "0" mark with the V in the fan shroud and then make a mark on the pulley that will line up with the zero mark on the bus style timing scale as shown by SG Kent. |
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Will do and report back! Thanks again helps a lot! |
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7093
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| XPafiolis wrote: |
| im curious how do i make a new mark on the outer edge of my fan? to i just line it up to TDC then make a mark at the top for use with the scale? OR do i Put it in TDC, then mark it at 0 on the scale? |
easiest thing to do is change the fan to one from a bus, it has the mark already. it will lack the marks on the aluminum portion of the fan, for timing through the hole.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 Timing questions / is this correct? |
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| XPafiolis wrote: |
hey everyone!
just got my motor running again after a ton of issues with bearings... now i am trying to get everything timed right so i can start driving it.
i have been dealing with some issues trying to time the engine and am not sure if i am doing something completely wrong OR the fact that the motor is built from 3 seperate motors is not helping me.
its a Type 4 EA motor. 73 with FI. 007 dual vacume dist.
-points adjusted to spec in manual
-all new hoses with clamps to avoid vacume leaks.
-installed fuel pressure guage. running perfect 28-30psi.
-adjusted valves and everything properly, and the motor started right up and idled no problem. Idle is a bit high (1200-1700 rpm)climbs as it warms
-idle adjuster screw is ALL THE WAY IN (dont know why)
-ecu mixture knob was turned all the way to the right (22 clicks.) when centered idle climbs.
-all new injector seals, gaskets etc.
I thought timing may be contributing to the high idle. tried to adjust as per green manual BUT manual says 5* ATDC at idle 950rpm. I CANT GET 950 rpm it seems.
tried my best to tweak timing by rotating dist. when the mark on the fan is in the notch (as stated by book with vacume hooked up) idle is high 1500rpm. i realize this is wrong.
realizing im doing something wrong i searched online... didnt find anything too helpful so what would be my next step?
i did find the distributor page, with specifics for each distributor. it says to time 007 to 28*BTDC at 2000 rpm w/ disconected vac i believe. i have no fan notch there to go by. the fan has a red line at 5* ATDC (maybe not orig fan?)
how does one adjust timing to 28*? i have a scale and put a mark on the fan at tdc. is there any special way? (to clarify i am using a timing light)
i realize i should back the idle adjust screw out 2.5 ish turns and center my ecu knob before timing right? the joys of second hand parts...
any help would be appreciated. |
This is a 411/412 engine...or basically identical to Porsche 914 1.7L.
It uses D-jetronic injection.....and was never used in a bus in this configuration. It can work fine in a bus...just be aware that it most probably has high compression pistons. You will...as other have noted...need to run premium and watch your head temperaturesi na bus. That being said...it puts out about 16 more hp than a 1.7L bus version of this engine.
The green manual will be of little help in tuning this engine. The idle screw is all the way in because you already probably have too much air entering the engine.
This is a VACUUM controlled injection system. Absolutely NO vacuum leaks of any kind or size are allowed.
There were a range of different fan assemblies that fit these engines.
The safest thing to do is....if it has a "0" for TDC..which many did...take the fan off, measure the OD of the pulley. Get a compass, some paper and a protractor. Make a circle on the paper. Mark where "0" is....with the protractor and ruler....make a line from the center of the compass point that intersects the outside of the circle at 27* to the right of the "0" mark when the fan is laying on the paper face down (crank mounting up).
This 27* should correspond to where the red mark is on your pulley.
There are some that have a different red mark. make sure yours is at 27* BTDC.
As other have noted.....with "0" and 27* marked on the fan....re-install the fan, bolt on the bus timing scale...and with the engine at "0" as timed through the hole in the fan housing.......make a mark on the outer pulley that corresponds with "0" on the bus timing scale. Make a mark also that corresponds to 27*on the bus timing scale... on the pulley.
This engine with this injection MUST be timed at 27* before TDC at 3500 rpm with vacuuum advance hoses disconnected.
If you do not time it this way...your injection timing will be off...because the injection is timed by distributor position.
Also....its good practice when starting out to set the dial on the ECU in the center....about 12 clicks from either end. This control idle mixture only...not running mixture.
Also...make sure your MPS (manifold pressure sensor) holds vacuum and has the large external adjsuting screw still in the rear of it...hopefully still glued in with epoxy. This will get you started. Ray |
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: |
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thanks again for the tips everyone!
i had a chance to tackle the timing yesterday! i marked the tdc with 0 on the scale as mentioned and timed the engine to 28* @ 2000rpm as speced out by the page listing all the specs. when i re attached the vac hoses timing changed to about 22-20* is this a sign of something wrong? or is that normal. i may have nudged the distributor while tightenting but tried my best not to.
Ray, you mentioned 27* at 3500rpm? should i give this a try maybe? i was aiming for 2000rpm but was tricky because my idle speed was hovering about 2000rpm
i will tryi again centering the ecu dial. My MPS holds vacume, but i believe it has been tweaked by the Previous owner. (no epoxy) can the MPS control idle speeds? ive picked up another mps to try today.
once this is all set, what other things can bring my idle down to the 950rpm? im going to try plugging my intake and seeing if it will still run i guess? i have all new hoses and clamps on everything... but could be a simple problem i guess!
thanks again everyone! |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Go over your settings and make sure you are 100% sure you are at TDC. It has to be exact and not just close.
Pull and plug the dist vacuum line. Set the timing to 28 degrees with the engine RPM about 3000 - basically you rev the engine until the advance maxes out and it should be at 28 BTDC.
Let the engine return to idle. The RPM should be about 900 RPM. If not adjust it using the throttle body screw if FI or the idle stop/air bypass if carb. Look at the timing again. It should be about 7 degrees +/- 3. If it is still at 22 then your mechanical advance in the distributor is sticking and needs a few drops of oil.
Add back the vacuum line. The engine RPM should not change nor should the timing. If it does and you are at idle, then it is likley your distributor is hooked up to manifold vacuum and not ported vacuum. The vacuum can should always be hooked up to ported vacuum so it only gets vacuum when the throttle is open.
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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ok, i finally had a chance to get out there!
first off, my fan wheel has the correct markings. TDC, 27* and BTDC.
i double checked everything, centered ecu knob backed off idle screw a few turns plugged vacuum lines and proceeded. i started the motor, rev'd to 3000rpm approx. and proceeded to adjust to 27* i had it adjusted to 27* via the scale then looked in the at the fan wheel marking, and lined up the marking exactly in the V notch.
the first time i did this and let it drop to idle, idle remained approx 2000rpm AND timing dropped to 20* ish. i took sgkents advise and gave the distributor a few drops of oil, stopped and started a few times and it finally dropped to 6-8* BTDC is this correct? RPM still stays approx 2000rpm.
to diagnose if i have a vacuum leak or anything i removed my airbox and plugged the hole. engine died. i pulled the rubber elbow and inspected the round piece inside the throttle body thinking maybe its not closing... seems to close. unplugged the throttle body no change.
i put the idle screw all the way in, still almost 2000rpm. i plugged the idle screw hole with my thumb and could feel a huge suction. if i plugged it completely it kills the engine.
ALso, i had the AAR plugged off as it was like that when i got the motor. i unplugged it for curiositys sake. it had a slight suction, im aware theyre supposed to close off once warm. if its plugged rpm should be no change though right? even unplugged rpm had little or no change.
ON TOP OF THAT, i replaced my MPS with an untampered one, epoxy intact. no change.
i am running 94 octane, running bosche IR platinum plugs ( i noticed theyre a bit longer threads but not sure if it makes a difference)
any more ideas?
thanks again 
i owe you all xmas presents haha. let me know if you need any extra parts, i seem to have access to parts galore over here. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| XPafiolis wrote: |
ok, i finally had a chance to get out there!
first off, my fan wheel has the correct markings. TDC, 27* and BTDC.
i double checked everything, centered ecu knob backed off idle screw a few turns plugged vacuum lines and proceeded. i started the motor, rev'd to 3000rpm approx. and proceeded to adjust to 27* i had it adjusted to 27* via the scale then looked in the at the fan wheel marking, and lined up the marking exactly in the V notch.
the first time i did this and let it drop to idle, idle remained approx 2000rpm AND timing dropped to 20* ish. i took sgkents advise and gave the distributor a few drops of oil, stopped and started a few times and it finally dropped to 6-8* BTDC is this correct? RPM still stays approx 2000rpm.
to diagnose if i have a vacuum leak or anything i removed my airbox and plugged the hole. engine died. i pulled the rubber elbow and inspected the round piece inside the throttle body thinking maybe its not closing... seems to close. unplugged the throttle body no change.
i put the idle screw all the way in, still almost 2000rpm. i plugged the idle screw hole with my thumb and could feel a huge suction. if i plugged it completely it kills the engine.
ALso, i had the AAR plugged off as it was like that when i got the motor. i unplugged it for curiositys sake. it had a slight suction, im aware theyre supposed to close off once warm. if its plugged rpm should be no change though right? even unplugged rpm had little or no change.
ON TOP OF THAT, i replaced my MPS with an untampered one, epoxy intact. no change.
i am running 94 octane, running bosche IR platinum plugs ( i noticed theyre a bit longer threads but not sure if it makes a difference)
any more ideas?
thanks again
i owe you all xmas presents haha. let me know if you need any extra parts, i seem to have access to parts galore over here. |
Ok..a couple of things: This is a 411/412 engine...not a bus engine. It must be specifically adjusted for what is was designed to be....or your injection timing will suffer.
The 411/412 engine timing is adjusted at 3500 rpm...not 3000 rpm. If you leave the rpm too low.....it can cause you to turn the distributor body too far to achieve the 27 BTDC....at the lower rpm. this will elave you with initial timing too far advanced.
Depending on the distributor...the difference may be only slight....as long as advance is completely in.
Something is off.....because if you are REALLY still at 2000 rpm...your advance should be up around 20 BTDC.
6-8 BTDC is fairly normal for a 411/412 engine at IDLE.....although they run much better with idle timing of about 10-12 BTDC.
It sounds like your advance is hanging up still. Personally I would remove and clean and derust all of the centrifugal advance equipment.
Important things to check:
(1) Make absoluetly sure your throttle is not sticking open. Close it hard by hand and see if that changes anything.
(2) did you replace the o-ring behind the throttle body?
(3) The black hose in your picture of the cleaned up engine....that connects to the three wire flame trap...that connects to the red hoses that go to the heads.....where is that attched? It should go to a specific port on the air cleaner. Its not a vacuum leak... but lets just be sure how things are routed.
(4) The red hose that goes from the oil breather/filler and connects to the center intake section.....the elbow it connects to on teh oil breather is a PCV valve. It is very very common that the flat plastic spring loaded disc in that valve is shattered or frozen. Remove that hose and put your thumb over it or plug it with a spark plug and see if that drops the idle.
Remove the oil breather and blow lightly through the PCV valve. Now suck through it lightly. It should flow hardly anything unless you blow or suck hard.
Remove the oil breather....you will see a D shaped plastic plug underneath. Pry it out carefully. Remove the rubber elbow above and the knurled nylon ring....the PCV valve will now fall out through the bottom. Looking at the bottom sideyou can see the plastic disc to inspect if it has cracked.
I highly recommend to crack that disc out all the way...and reinstall the PCV..leaving it just as a pass through nipple. Then install a piece of plastic or aluminum rod about 1/2" in diamter into the line between the PCV nipple and the plenum....as a plug for the hose. Make sure it is big enough in diameter to plug the hose tightly. Drill a 2mm hole (start with a 2mm and go to 3mm if necessary)through the plug in the hose. This works perfectly and is much more tunable and flows better.
(5) Make sure the hose that went to the plenum that fed the automatic transmission is not open. |
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XPafiolis
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Joined: January 26, 2010
Posts: 142
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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on my way out right now to do as you suggested ray.
will re-time to 27@ 3500rpm exactly.
1)closing throttle by hand makes slight difference but not much.
2)o ring is in good shape.
3) black hose from flame trap goes to air cleaner.
4) i will check the PCV valve. i did look at this one when i installed it and if remember correctly it acted almost like a 1 way valve... but will plug it and see if it affects idle. if i remember correct nothing is cracked or frozen.
i will check that theres no auto transmission hoses or theyre plugged. (ive got a manual) |
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