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Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter?
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

Popcorn

Damn this is hard to follow but entertaining non the less... in a train wreck sort of way.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
?Waldo? wrote:
I also don't consider the horn to be 'mission critical'.

New York State does and checks its operation during the annual state inspection.

If you have a manual transmission and park on a hill, then a working starter is not mission critical.

Just saying....

BTW
https://www.gowesty.com/product/horn/24867/horn-load-reduction-relay-kit

https://www.vancafe.com/RMW-9985102-p/rmw-9985102.htm

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=419209

https://www.gowesty.com/product/electrical/21046/relay-various-uses-


The horn works in each of my vehicles. If the horn failed I would not have an inoperable vehicle and I would fix it promptly even though there are not any annual vehicle inspections where I reside. I would not call a tow truck if my horn failed. I doubt anyone would. I would also not be stuck in a parking lot or in the woods. Push starting a vanagon is not possible in many situations, especially if the need to do so is unexpected. Ever tried to push-start a vanagon on flat ground by yourself? Good luck with that. Regardless, 2 of my current 4 Vanagons are automatic so push starting isn't an option on those. Even if it was an option, needing to push-start a van is still a very real downside to having a hot start relay fail. And finally... all of those links are to non-stock aftermarket relay kits that add a relay to the horn circuit. As I stated, the Vanagon did not come stock with a horn relay.
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OzzieJo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

Damn this thread is moving fast. Apologies I meant to post my “hard start” install that I did last weekend. I utilised a “water resistant” relay and fuse so hopefully this will prove to be reliable. Install was detailed here.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=712964&start=120

Hooroo
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

I don't know what all the hub bub on reliability of relays falls into the galactic order of things.
the ignition switch and the starter interloc on automatics are astronomically more apt to fail 1st..

of the relays i've had fail in VWs it's when a PO installed them under the van in the elements without a sealed relay that got full of water or that the gopher crimps on the DIY wiring were botched.


regarding the Nth discussion... 4 of 5 dentists.. answered the survey

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1988M5
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

The odds of a relay failure is very low and the benefits are very high. Why not just wire two relays together in parallel to change the failure rate from very low to incredibly low.

BK
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

1988M5 wrote:
The odds of a relay failure is very low and the benefits are very high. Why not just wire two relays together in parallel to change the failure rate from very low to incredibly low.

BK


I just keep the extra relay in the glove box.
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1988M5
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
1988M5 wrote:
The odds of a relay failure is very low and the benefits are very high. Why not just wire two relays together in parallel to change the failure rate from very low to incredibly low.

BK


I just keep the extra relay in the glove box.


That works for only you, the person that installed the modification and knows how to diagnose and know where the suspected failed relay is located. Lend your vehicle to a friend or have the wife break down isn’t gonna help with a spare part available in the glove box. Let’s not forget selling it to someone that has no idea that system is modified and the trouble of figuring out what the PO did. If you’re going to spend the time to modify a stock system to help remedy something and/or make it more reliable, make it redundant and bomb proof for a few extra dollars and minutes of time. Am I crazy?

BK
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

1988M5 wrote:
Am I crazy?

BK


That's a dangerous question. It seems that several people in this thread think that I am crazy just for mentioning the potential downside. I think the dual relay idea is interesting for an operation-critical item like the starter circuit. Then again, I walk my dog with two intertwined leashes, one to the harness and one to the collar. Smile
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1988M5
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
1988M5 wrote:
Am I crazy?

BK


That's a dangerous question. It seems that several people in this thread think that I am crazy just for mentioning the potential downside. I think the dual relay idea is interesting for an operation-critical item like the starter circuit. Then again, I walk my dog with two intertwined leashes, one to the harness and one to the collar. Smile

Mr. Waldo,
Us crazies think and plan alike. I also walk my dog with twin straps attached to independent harnesses. The minor maintenance/hassle to keep the system working right is nothing compared to one failing and your kid (dog) ran over. Minutes of planning can avoid hours of recanting.
Happy Friday!
BK
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

1988M5 wrote:

Mr. Waldo,
Us crazies think and plan alike. I also walk my dog with twin straps attached to independent harnesses. The minor maintenance/hassle to keep the system working right is nothing compared to one failing and your kid (dog) ran over. Minutes of planning can avoid hours of recanting.
Happy Friday!
BK


You just made my day! Thanks.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
1988M5 wrote:

Mr. Waldo,
Us crazies think and plan alike. I also walk my dog with twin straps attached to independent harnesses. The minor maintenance/hassle to keep the system working right is nothing compared to one failing and your kid (dog) ran over. Minutes of planning can avoid hours of recanting.
Happy Friday!
BK


You just made my day! Thanks.

Belt and suspenders.

Do you carry a spare fuel pump and distributor?
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danfromsyr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

I do carry a spare fuel pump. and I have a fuel pump relay too..

I do plan to plumb & wire twin fuel pumps in my next system upgrade. I've researched alternating latching relays.. so that each turn of the key runs on the other fuel pump.. having driveability issues.. click it off and back on to the other pump and if symptoms go away suspect the 1st pump.. the alternating latching relay vs a double pole selective switch means that both get regular use and I don't have to remember to switch them manually.

belt and suspenders.

in our AT vanagons we do carry a spare(new) starter. it's far easier to replace or have random joe's garage replace if you have the part on hand..
have helped several vw people with starters that look like they came from a swamp (north east US) Ohh yeah it's been acting funny the past year... and now they're calling the roadside list from the thruway. go figure..

and I never heard back from that one guy who I delivered a water pump & H pipe to on the thruway who was moving his family from VT to WA... at least I feel the dog appreciated the effort in delivery of unavailable locally parts

anyways.. Waldo just likes the occasional soapbox..
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:

Belt and suspenders.

Do you carry a spare fuel pump and distributor?


Each of my Vanagons now are diesel so no distributor. I will carry a spare injection pump on any signficant trips along with the tools required to swap it out. Spare turbo and starter also, but those are the largest spares I will carry.

danfromsyr wrote:
I do plan to plumb & wire twin fuel pumps in my next system upgrade. I've researched alternating latching relays.. so that each turn of the key runs on the other fuel pump.. having driveability issues.. click it off and back on to the other pump and if symptoms go away suspect the 1st pump.. the alternating latching relay vs a double pole selective switch means that both get regular use and I don't have to remember to switch them manually.

belt and suspenders.


I like the dual latching/switching relay concept. I'll look into that, thanks.

Quote:
anyways.. Waldo just likes the occasional soapbox..


That's not actually true. I just believe that it is a service to all to present the most accurate information I can so that others can make educated decisions about what is best for them. When I see others presenting information that I believe to be inaccurate, and that information could result in their suffering or the suffering of others I feel a certain civic duty to offer my view.
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:

Quote:
anyways.. Waldo just likes the occasional soapbox..


That's not actually true. I just believe that it is a service to all to present the most accurate information I can so that others can make educated decisions about what is best for them. When I see others presenting information that I believe to be inaccurate, and that information could result in their suffering or the suffering of others I feel a certain civic duty to offer my view.


This implies a 30% failure rate
?Waldo? wrote:
3 of 10 people (30%) posting in this thread have had starter relays fail.

A sampling of 10 is not an accurate sampling.
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Abscate
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

I think it’s great that we have identified a problem three people have suffered in a 10 year running thread.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
?Waldo? wrote:

Quote:
anyways.. Waldo just likes the occasional soapbox..


That's not actually true. I just believe that it is a service to all to present the most accurate information I can so that others can make educated decisions about what is best for them. When I see others presenting information that I believe to be inaccurate, and that information could result in their suffering or the suffering of others I feel a certain civic duty to offer my view.


This implies a 30% failure rate
?Waldo? wrote:
3 of 10 people (30%) posting in this thread have had starter relays fail.

A sampling of 10 is not an accurate sampling.


It does *not* imply a 30% failure rate. If you believe it does, then you are not looking at it logically. I certainly never believed it implied that and am surprised that you would think that it did.

I don't even know how many of those 10 people have any starter relays installed or in how many vehicles. What it implies is that the number of people who have had failed relays is not zero and that it is not a single person fluke. It shows that in a very small cross-section of people posting in this thread, there are THREE that have had a starter relay fail. That certainly implies (proves) that there is a real possibility of failure and that potential failure is a clear downside to adding a component that is not specifically needed. It shows quite clearly that adding a starter relay does not have 'zero downsides'.


Last edited by ?Waldo? on Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

You're the one that said "30%".

If you're leaving it to interpretation than you're not being very accurate. It's list using your left foot to measure 10 feet.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

Do you have any actual information to add or just want to beat a dead horse some more and poke me with a stick?

Your response to my original post would have made a lot more sense if it was something like this:

"Yeah, you're right, relays sometimes fail. Not very often but that is a clear downside. Thanks for pointing that out."
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

?Waldo? wrote:
Do you have any actual information to add or just want to beat a dead horse some more and poke me with a stick?

Just waiting for you to get off the soapbox.

But i'm glad we both agree that adding a relay is a cheap and easy way to fix a intermittent starter problem due to low voltage. And the failure rate is more than acceptable.

That's all.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Hard Start Relay a good idea for new starter? Reply with quote

I'm glad we both now agree that there are both upsides and downsides to installing a starter relay and that some people might find the failure rate an acceptable risk and others might not, and in either case that's just fine.
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