Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Impressive small displacement combo (chassis dyno eval)
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7370
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:31 pm    Post subject: Impressive small displacement combo (chassis dyno eval) Reply with quote

A few years ago I built a 1679cc (with machine in 88mm cylinders) T1 engine for a friend of mine.. He put 60K miles on it, but decided to graduate up to a TIV engine for his 181 (and never look back!). He ended up donating me the tired RAT 1679 for R&D purposes a year or so ago.

I recently bought a 73 Super with no engine and had planned on throwing a TIV into it, but just haven't had the time to prepare one.. Well my Nephew has been in training with us for a year now, so I decided to have him tear down the 1679, reconfigure it and patch it up for some service in the Super. That worked well since I could stand another daily driver with heat while I finish my 912E revitalization, so I don't have to drive a damn 996 everyday!

So the 60K mile engine was torn down, the only thing that was worn were the camshaft thrust bearings. We honed the cylinders, replaced the bearings, replaced the rings and did a good valve job with new valves. The only changes I made to it was adding an Engle FK-41 Camshaft coupled to a 1.4 ratio rocker, a .035 deck and ended up at 9.6:1 CR.

My Nephew then balanced the assembly and assembled it. We topped it off with a Mallory Uni-Lite Dizzy and an ACE prepped single 40 Dellorto DRLA carburetor. I ran the single to keep the engine super simple and easy to work on. The Ace prepped carb ran perfect out of the box and needed zero tuning to dial in perfectly at both part and wide open throttle.. I only needed to touch the mixture controls.

All in all the cost to reconfigure the engine cost 237.00 to include the new cam and Engle lifters, bearings and rings. I spent more on the carb rebuild than the entire rest of the engine as it was 95% used parts, a true sweep the floor powerplant.

So today my Nephew installed the engine.. We then dumped a healthy dose of RAT Snake Oil Break In oil in the crankcase, fired it up and broke the cam in.. I then took it for a blast up the road and I was amazed! I returned from the blast up the road and rolled it straight onto our chassis dyno where it made the following power.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now, its been a long time since an engine only made 70RWHP on my chassis dyno and we have never assembled an engine that made less than 100 RWHP on this dynojet. Its kinda of hard to get super excited about such little power, but this engine is REALLY IMPRESSIVE. To create 70 RWHP means this engine is producing 20% more power at the flywheel,(roughly 85HP) now I wish we would have taken the time to bolt it on the engine dyno too!

The torque curve is impressive and extremely flat with a huge concentration of torque below 3,000 RPM, perfect for the tall gearing the Super has as it was previously equipped with a 2270 TIV that loves tall gearing. 75MPH is achieved at only 3,400 RPM between the tall tires and tall gears, but this engine pulls the gear very well, unbelievably well.

I never expected this engine to produce this much power, or to have this level of throttle response with a stock weight flywheel and a single 40mm Dellorto with no port work and simply prepared 041 valved heads.

Even the exhaust system is used and its only a 1-3/8" Chinese system with a single quiet pack... It fits this combo perfectly and appears to have more potential in the top end as the engine is still leaning out up top, not richening up, which generally indicates inefficiency.

I highly recommend this combo for anyone wanting to build a small displacement, great driving, cheap torquer combo. The FK 41 camshaft is really impressive, we'll be watching oil samples from this engine to monitor the life of the new Engle lifters and to continue our oil development... The FK 41 was the cam that was closest to what my camshaft iterator chose for peak torque at such a low RPM when i set up the iteration parameters within the software. It is performing exactly as I expected, and that torque curve reminds me of a TIV!

Its been twenty years since I've driven a ACVW with less than 140HP, but this engine is so snappy and fun to drive, I don't miss the added power as much as I believed I would.. Its not "MassIVe and its not bad ass, but it is simple, does have great heat and didn't cost me anything to create while giving my Nephew more experience. I'll be doing my best to break it for the remainder of the winter!

I expect insane MPG due to the efficiency of this combo and the gearing.. We'll have to see!

Here is the recipe:
69X88
DPR 69mm CT/WT crank
Stock 311B rods
FK 41 cam, 112* LC
.035 deck, 9.6:1 CR static
Single Dellorto 40 with 34 vents
Genuine 041 heads, no port work, competition valve job, port fluffing only
1.4 ratio rocker
Manton pushrods
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AlteWagen
Troll


Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 7631

AlteWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive read the FK4x cams are hard on lifter bores, did you do anything to strengthen the case?

My 0 deck 1699 with 9:1 compression really surprised the hell out of me as well. pulls really hard and gives excellent mileage.

Do you plan on putting on some 36 or 40 duals and compare power/mileage?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mightymouse
Samba Member


Joined: May 26, 2004
Posts: 4219
Location: las vegas
mightymouse is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy
I love me some 1679's.
Thats whats in my bus now and i love it, going on 15 years with this engine. It was out of my sight for 2 years and now back, refreshed and should be good for another 15 years. Same results, everything inside was great. Case all still std etc etc. Though i did have some lifter pits, so now i have a web cam and lifters. Smile
_________________
Nothing can stop the man with the right mental attitude from achieving his goal; nothing on earth can help the man with the wrong mental attitude.
Thomas Jefferson


Note to EVERYONE.
Know your ZDDP levels or you WILL lose a cam and lifters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7370
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care if its hard on lifter bores... The cams do have a fast ramp, which is why they make torque.. They make for loud valvetrain, but who cares! If a lifter bore wears so badly that it breaks, I'll laugh..

This engine is mostly all used parts, we even reused the 60K mile center main bearings because they were still good and were steel backed where the new ones weren't!

If the lifter bores start going away I'll see that in the aluminum and magnesium elements of the used oil analysis the engine will get every 1,000 miles like all our other cars.

I don't plan on using this engine for any other test work, no other comparatives, just drive it and carry out used oil samples.. Type 1 development isn't in my blood any longer and probably never will be again..

I wanted to see first hand what the Engle lifters were like. I never dreamed I'd even have another Type one, but it was cheap and got a car on the road that would otherwise be collecting dust.

One thing is for sure, I'd rather have this sweep the floor engine comprised of 95% 12 year old components than any new T1 with todays junk inside it
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
yoshi123
Samba Member


Joined: April 04, 2008
Posts: 125
Location: la puente
yoshi123 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jake can you anwer my question below?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
yoshi123
Samba Member


Joined: April 04, 2008
Posts: 125
Location: la puente
yoshi123 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this small engine combo is cool for poor poeple like me, this small motor makes good power for the money and size, compared to poorly build larger motors that arent tuned as well, the motors we run into on the street, the 1776's and 1835's that run like dirt....unbalanced, and untuned...thats pretty cool
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7370
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yoshi123 wrote:
jake can you anwer my question below?

Didn't see a question-
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
yoshi123
Samba Member


Joined: April 04, 2008
Posts: 125
Location: la puente
yoshi123 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

not that one i had another question about another topic i wanted you to aswer before i lose what little money i have, look for the thread about running zero deck...plz answer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ralf
Samba Member


Joined: July 08, 2008
Posts: 1208
Location: r4
ralf is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow those numbers @ the wheels is impressive..


i was about to comment on the a/f graph from 4-5k rpm

goin lean = good good effieciency

but then jake knew this before i realized it (as shown by his post hehe)


nice to see these T1 numbers from u jake..


although il bet mainly its cuz of the 12yr old parts (better quality)
attention to detail on the rebuild (by your nephew) + the valvejob

oh and ofcourse Art' touching the carbs , its been known that he does weird good things to carbs hahaha
_________________
Flow Through a Curved Conduit
www.srdmotorsports.blogspot.com
www.facebook.com/SRDms/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ralf
Samba Member


Joined: July 08, 2008
Posts: 1208
Location: r4
ralf is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw jake.. quick question

041 heads in stock form with just a good valvejob and fluffing..

does it mean its 39x32 valve size?
_________________
Flow Through a Curved Conduit
www.srdmotorsports.blogspot.com
www.facebook.com/SRDms/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7370
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the heads are stock 041 with 39X32 valves.. Its what I used on the engine 12 years ago when it went into a 181 application and was fed with CIS fuel injection.

This combo seems to be very efficient and it behaves well at all usable RPM. It runs smooth and has torque not generally found with a T1 combo anywhere near this displacement at lower RPM.

My Nephew is well on his way to being another successful Raby.. He worked for me once 9 years ago, but back then he thought I was too much of a hard ass.. The second time around he is proving much more successful.. He has already successfully assembled a Porsche M96 test engine which is no small feat considering he did it with no assistance from any of us here and most Dealership Technicians can't do this correctly.. Still he has a long way to go with lots of challenges ahead of him.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DStar
Samba Member


Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 49

DStar is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I look at Jakes dyno sheets, compared to most T1s posted on the net, I
always seem to notice that his DOESN'T have the 2500-3000 RPM droop that ALL others have!

Look at ANY other T1 dyno sheet and you'll see what I mean! Must be in the heads?

What gives Jake? You holding on to *secrets*?

Wink

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gt1953
Samba Member


Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 12207
Location: White Mountains Arizona
gt1953 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell me more about the Carb...does the manifold have heat??
Would that carb work on a 1776? I do live in at 6500 and yea it snowed last night.
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
68 type 1
72 type 1
73 type 1
72 Squareback
59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 69 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
midtravelmidengine
Samba Member


Joined: August 06, 2009
Posts: 861
Location: Riverside, Ca
midtravelmidengine is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake, would you mind if Glenn moves your opening post to the "Engines/Builds" section?
_________________
modok wrote:
And I know you don't know because if you did you would know the reason for my knowing you didn't.


youngnstudly wrote:
I just wasn't sure if I should recommend the 1/3 race cam, the 1/2 race cam, or the 5/8 race cam instead...guess it depends on how much of the race he wants to lead???
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Art Thraen
Samba Member


Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 478
Location: Utah
Art Thraen is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sweep the foor engines are so fun.... I built an 1835 for a guy in Idaho for a buggy.. Just like Jake it was all used parts, even the cam, and lifters were used bugpack 4061 kit.. it was a budget deal.. Made great power and the guy now has 4 years on it. with a single 40IDF made 85HP..

Some combos and kits just work out well.
It was alot like this one
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Gariack
Samba Member


Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 59
Location: San Diego, CA
Gariack is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you please post the cam card for the FK-41?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
RockCrusher
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2010
Posts: 4596
Location: Parkesburg, PA
RockCrusher is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew as soon as you quoted the combo it was a nice engine Jake. This last Spring we did an engine like that for a local buggy kid on a tight budget and that thing impressed the Hell out of my Nephew and the kid was delighted with it. Lights up his Terra tires easily. I love the lower FK40 series cams in case anyone never noticed. That fk41 is a monster torquer and I don't believe the lifter wear on the lower series will prove bad even with the hot ramps.....better than any VZ series ramp. I won't even consider using an older 87 or 89 cam unless the customer is adamant about it, then the final product is on his head not mine. Nephews are pretty cool once they get a few years under their belts.....mine is for sure, great kid.

RC
_________________
[email protected] Please use email for all general inquiries.

I will be happy to speak to anyone who has a serious inquiry (meaning real potential business for RC enterprises) or a parts order. Due to machining noise causing missed calls all calls will be returned promptly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Jake Raby
Samba Member


Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7370
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
Jake Raby is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the carb has heat.. I am going to modify the air filter top for even more added heat from the driver's side heaterbox so it'll perform even better in the cold because thats all I'll be using this engine for.. Come Spring it'll get a 2.7 liter TIV as I'll have the 912 revitalized and it has AWESOME heat.

Dstar,
I design combinations to make USABLE power within a concentrated RPM range based on more than just output and making impressive power on the dyno.

I generally start dyno pulls at 1,500 RPM, most T1 builds start pulling engines from 3K or even 3,500 RPM. I wanted down low power to pull the tall gearing the car already had from it's days as a TIV powered Daily Driver. I didn't want to change the trans and I really doubted that a 1679 would pull the gears, but it does well, it even spools up the 5,000 pound rollers on my dyno well in 4th gear..
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
spencerfvee
Samba Member


Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 1947

spencerfvee is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hay rock crusher who the hells jake raby? is he some gear head or something lol lol i kind of like him because he likes single dellortos too lol spencerfvee................................................................................
RockCrusher wrote:
I knew as soon as you quoted the combo it was a nice engine Jake. This last Spring we did an engine like that for a local buggy kid on a tight budget and that thing impressed the Hell out of my Nephew and the kid was delighted with it. Lights up his Terra tires easily. I love the lower FK40 series cams in case anyone never noticed. That fk41 is a monster torquer and I don't believe the lifter wear on the lower series will prove bad even with the hot ramps.....better than any VZ series ramp. I won't even consider using an older 87 or 89 cam unless the customer is adamant about it, then the final product is on his head not mine. Nephews are pretty cool once they get a few years under their belts.....mine is for sure, great kid.

RC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AlteWagen
Troll


Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 7631

AlteWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the trans gearing and rear tire?

3.87 with a .93 4th?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 1 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB