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Art Thraen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 478
Location: Utah
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 Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: DP heads for 36HP with 48 IDAs |
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We @ ACE are building a very High Performance 36HP engine for a client..
Look at the heads that Justin is Porting..
This engine will spool to 8000 RPM
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Roadcow
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Joined: November 14, 2003
Posts: 1012
Location: Stockton, Ca. area
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! 
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Mr. Okrasa 
Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000
Posts: 726
Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:14 pm Post subject: Valve Train |
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Art,
Curious to know what lifter/cam combo. you plan on running that will allow you to spool the engine to 8k without letting the lifters "bounce" on the camshaft. I know you can get springs that will hold the lifter on the cam but the radius lifters that VW used are only good til about 5k.
You can straighten the angled lifter bores by sleeving/bore/ream the lifter bosses at a straight 90* to the camshaft. Modify the cam brng. bore at the cam gear end install one of the many performance camshafts that are available for the 356. Of course you would use their mushroom faced lifters also! Just my .02 cents worth........
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grueni
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 582
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: Valve Train |
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| Mr. Okrasa wrote: |
Art,
Curious to know what lifter/cam combo. you plan on running that will allow you to spool the engine to 8k without letting the lifters "bounce" on the camshaft. I know you can get springs that will hold the lifter on the cam but the radius lifters that VW used are only good til about 5k.
You can straighten the angled lifter bores by sleeving/bore/ream the lifter bosses at a straight 90* to the camshaft. Modify the cam brng. bore at the cam gear end install one of the many performance camshafts that are available for the 356. Of course you would use their mushroom faced lifters also! Just my .02 cents worth........ |
True with the angle of the lifter bores, you can straighten them in that way, hard to do and not alot material at the end.
Buuut the radius lifter are good for 8000 rpm. The medusa engine had 800 miles on them and i had it every day a couple times in the limiter and this with boost. limmiter from the beginning 7000- at the end with 7600 rpm. This all with just 74kg spring pressure at max lift of 12,3mm. Without boost this was enough for close to 8000rpm. depends on camdesign, there you can save some real % of valvepressure. I mean the starting ramp.
My cam and lifters look like new... I will make pictures after xmas.
For daily driver 5000k is a longe live choice if done right
At this point
Mery xmas to all
My question to the heads is, what valvesizes and bore stroke will that engine get to spin that high.ans shall this engine make usefull power up to 8000 or just spin that high.
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gimmesomeshelter
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004
Posts: 1466
Location: San Carlos, CA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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Hello-
Holy ____ - I can't wait to see that bad boy go!
Regarding 36HP lifters, I've noticed that stefi.g has made some custom lifters to fit into a slightly modified 36HP case.
This sounds interesting, but I've always thought that the 36HP lifters are a little off center, so the high point of the lifter is a couple of mm away from the center. 
Paul
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splitpile
Samba's Worst Speller
Joined: May 03, 2000
Posts: 5927
Location: back to living where hell meets the suface
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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We've been working on trying to make 356 cam followers work in a 36hp case. Any tips I'd like to know some secrets.
Art, post some pics of the manifolds unless it's top secret
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Mr. Okrasa
Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000
Posts: 726
Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Stefi. G. has the right idea but it doesnt end with just modifying a lifter. You have to prep the hole first!. Bore and sleeve at a 90* angle to the cam face, use late mushroom type lifters that are actually smaller in dia. than the above. While your ad it, move the lifter bore over to hit desired area of camshaft for proper wear. Use approp. springs depending RPM range. Sounds like you are good to go! Get ready for take off........
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See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
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TomSimon
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2004
Posts: 751
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Nice work Art and Justin !!! Did you start with oem sp 36hp heads? I am working on a version of straightening out litter bores and using .494" dia. Lifter ... I have two bores completed on a junk case |
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TomSimon
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2004
Posts: 751
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| gimmesomeshelter wrote: |
Hello-
Holy ____ - I can't wait to see that bad boy go!
Regarding 36HP lifters, I've noticed that stefi.g has made some custom lifters to fit into a slightly modified 36HP case.
This sounds interesting, but I've always thought that the 36HP lifters are a little off center, so the high point of the lifter is a couple of mm away from the center.
Paul |
yep , the 356 flat lifter is not only off center, but cam timing will be goofy.. which is why you want to do as Joe Ruiz explained, bush and rebore all 8 lifter bores so they resemble on center 356 cam and lifters. |
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stefi.g
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Joined: December 05, 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Czech
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Joe, my lifters are new ones, I used design of 356 lifters but with diameter of 30Ps pushrods, these lifters accept only 356 three pcs. case cams. of course there are not in 100% horizontal position but same as 30PS in 10grades of radius.... I tested them in a lot of engines without any problems. with ratio of rockers 1.1 or 1.5 in PreA porsche ones.
only you need cut axial -2mm in camshaft case position,thats all....
there are all engines used these lifters...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gOPBEV18Xs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUz0K3LyfGg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yPhy_gTkY
you can test them and you can tell me your opinion.
I also tested to do your idea to do this 90grades , used new bushings which acepts original 356 lifters, but there is more problems....
lifters are so long and the push rods are so much bended in high lift and connects push rods pipes, you need cut lifters over 8mm or enlarge your holes in both sides of engine case holes for your push rods tubes......
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gimmesomeshelter
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004
Posts: 1466
Location: San Carlos, CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hello-
If you use a cam from a three piece case, doesn't that alter the lob separation?
BTW, how can we turn this into a seperate topic?
Thanks,
Paul
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Last edited by gimmesomeshelter on Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr. Okrasa
Original Old Speed
Joined: May 20, 2000
Posts: 726
Location: Eastside, Costa Mesa. So. Califas...Loco's ;-)
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| Posted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| gimmesomeshelter wrote: |
Hello-
If you use a cam from a three piece case, doesn't that alter the lob seperation?
BTW, how can we turn this into a seperate topic?
Thanks,
Paul |
The cam lobes are ALMOST if not, in the same location. The lobes on the 3pc. cam are wider. Maybe that is why they "appear" off center.
As per BENDING PUSHRODS per Stefi G. I would use the 356 cut to length as they are stronger than 36hp.
Cheers!
_________________
See my Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/okrasa/
1959 VW Karmann Ghia Coupe / Bamboo-Green / Denzel 1300cc / OG. owner, paint
Denzel engine running. See this link: https://youtu.be/DgUlsQDTXTE
VW www.Okrasa.com
356 www.PreA356.com |
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grueni
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 582
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Tom Simon wrote: |
| Nice work Art and Justin !!! Did you start with oem sp 36hp heads? |
You can see in the pic that it is a welded okrasa .
how stefi.g tested, you need a bushing of... About 19mm? I am not at home, but i messured it, draw it in auto cad and to straighten the degree offset over an accaptable lenght will weaken the material alot and in fact of the then 90 degree to the cam the push rods bring force on the now very thin walls of the lifter bores. And on one case half the force will be kind of double that hard because of the rotating camshaft.
I would not test it with a spring pressure that is needes to reach 8000 rpm + the extra weight that the flat lifter will bring.
Just my 2 cent about 90degree flat lifters in 36hp case for me not save enough
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earthquake
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Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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Art Thraen
What head is that? is it a welded stock head or some thing else? I have thought about welding up a set of stock heads and tring to make a dual port 36hp head.
Casey
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oval56
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Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 1309
Location: oktoberfest maintown
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| earthquake wrote: |
Art Thraen
What head is that? is it a welded stock head or some thing else? I have thought about welding up a set of stock heads and tring to make a dual port 36hp head.
Casey |
look at the picture again and read grünis post.
there is one detail which tells you that it is an okrasa head no stock head.
look at the gasket area of the manifold.
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Art Thraen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 478
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| oval56 wrote: |
look at the picture again and read grünis post.
there is one detail which tells you that it is an okrasa head no stock head.
look at the gasket area of the manifold. |
Yes they are the new (repop) OKRASA type heads.. I have Justin doing the port work and he came up with using that manifold, I welded them and we even had to use a different spark plug. Put 6mm Guides and installed big seats, Next I will move the pushrod tube holes 1/4 in and make them line up. The cam we made will have 308 Dur,, 550" lift.. We have done this before and were able to get 7800 to 8000 RPM.. Use HONDA Race springs.. |
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grueni
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 582
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:36 am Post subject: |
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sure that tha cam will have 0.550" ..even with stock stroke and conrod there is not enough room for a cam with that lift. also i am sure the stock lifter and the 26mm porsche ones will not handle such a cam.
maybe you mean 0.550" at valve? that is possible. and the cam has that durration at what? zero? my curret medusa has 306° at zero on the exhaust...as n/a with the same on intake + high compression ( it has blowerfriendly 7,8:1) peak hp in the 7000 RPM would be more than possible.
in what engine did you have it done befor???
nice work on the heads... les see what they can do.
valve sizes?
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Art Thraen
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Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 478
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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This is the old cam.. the rockers are 1.31:1
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grueni
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Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 582
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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yes..but this is a cam with about...0.420" at the valve if i am right and so max. 0.330" at the cam...and correct me if I am wrong but was the single port not peak at about 4500 rpm in salt version and with other venturies and jeting max. peak near the 6000 rpm mark? some very good nimbers btw...damn it's a record holder.
was that cam 308° ? at what lash? my 306° cam at zero lash and 290° at 0.020" looks totally diferent.
but back to the heads...valvesizes? same as the singleport?
how deep did you weld..also between the both ports? both sides?
wishes from germany
and send some wishes to justin and colton
christian
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Last edited by grueni on Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Art Thraen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 478
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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32mm x 38mm intake welding was a trick...But had no problem..
The cam in the PIC is smaller, its the old one.. |
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