added a starter relay, SUCCESS!

[crazyvwvanman]

One of my diesel Vanagons has for a while now sometimes failed to start after being parked for a while, especially in cold weather. Turning the key would result in no sound at all or just a faint click from the back. Most times holding the key to start and then trying again a few times would eventually result in normal cranking. Today it simply would not crank no matter how hard I tried. Recently I ordered one of these starter relay kits on Samba and had it on hand, forgotten till today.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1066289

I grabbed the new relay kit and 10 minutes later the starter cranked on the first try. Thanks Jay.

Mark

[thatvwbusguy]

Good stuff Mark, glad it worked out so well for you! Your ignition switch should be happier now too. Without the full starting current travelling thru the switch it should run cooler and likely last much longer.

I have been thinking about offering a "Switch Saver / Whole Kit & Caboodle Relay Kit" that will combine a set of headlight relays with a hard start relay at a discount ($52.50 shipped via Priority Mail). This way, the well known electrical strains on the headlight switch, the hi/low beam selector switch and the ignition switch can all be dealt with simply and relatively cheaply.

I have been running the hard start relay as a "switch saver relay", a concept I got from some old Porsche 356 guys (who have very expensive ignition switches) on both of my vans for the past year or so. I always like to test drive stuff myself before I offer it up to other Vanagonauts here on thesamba.

I should add for other folks reading this, that this relay setup is not the cure for a dead starter. Rather, it is just a simple fix that often helps to overcome slow cranking caused by the high resistance that is often found in the aging wiring in our ignition systems. The relay provides a shorter current path between the battery and the starter solenoid, which has the combined effect of more juice to the starter and less strain on the ignition switch.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[Ahwahnee]

[thatvwbusguy]

The Switch Saver Master Kit kit is now on the website. Cost is $51.00 + shipping. Details can be found here:
https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/-the-switch-saver-relay-master-kit
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[j_dirge]

[insyncro]

I picked one of these up a few weeks ago and added it to a van today.
Nicely made, easy install, powerful starting.

dylan

[NorthernStar]

Hi. Having experienced the hot start problem on my '84 Waterboxer, I got a hot start relay kit. It was very easy to install, but when I started the engine I immediately realized that the starter wasn't disengaging and was being spun by the starter. When I turned the engine off the starter cluncked. Now if I had just added the relay to my existing starter, I would have immediately suspected that the problem was with the hot start relay since I hadn't changed anything else - however, I had also just replaced the old starter with an OEM Bosch rebuilt, and, not thinking that the relay could be causing the problem I took the new starter out, checked it (OK) and figured the problem must be that for some reason the rebuilt starter was slightly different than the original and was going too far into the bellhousing, causing the starter gear to not pull back far enough to clear the ring gear. I made a shim and put it between the starter and the engine to move the starter out, tried it again and it still wouldn't disengage. Finally I disconnected the hot start relay wiring and reconnected the original red/blk ignition wire to terminal 50 on the starter using the ignition switch again AND IT STARTS PERFECTLY! So, in other words, there is something that the hot start relay or circuit is doing to cause the starter solenoid to hang up, not release quickly enough or not kick back fast enough to clear the ring gear! Does anybody have an answer to this, or ever heard of it before? Everything I've read about this relay set-up has been positive. The only thing I can think of is that the relay is causing a slight delay in the operation of the starter solenoid (btw the battery is fully charged). Thanks.

[crazyvwvanman]

There is a known conflict with the relay under the driver seat if your van has one down there. It is a simple fix to get around the conflict and the starter relay kit I got from Jay had the extra jumper needed in case of the conflict.

The relay under the driver seat is in most Westy vans and some other vans that came with aux battery. The under seat relays ground to the starter motor wiring and this causes the conflict. You simply ground the underseat relay to it's own mounting screw instead. Then it no longer conflicts with the starter relay kit.

Mark

[thatvwbusguy]

If you do have a relay under the drivers seat, just remove the red/black wire that goes to it. I usually just zip tie it to one of the other wires near it to keep it from rattling around.

To make the new ground jumper wire Mark describes, just take a 6" piece of wire (16GA or larger) with a 1/4" female disconnect terminal on one end and a #10 ring terminal on the other end.

Push the 1/4" female disconnect terminal onto the tab on the relay that the red/black wire just came off.

Remove the screw on the relay mounting bracket and place the #10 ring terminal between the screw head and the mounting bracket. Reinstall the relay in it's original position and you're done.

If you don't have the materials to make the jumper wire, let me know and I will send you one for the cost of postage.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[stevey88]

[Jon_slider]

Im glad the relay is working for people.

I also have experienced failure to start, on my TDi, and previously on my Subaru powered syncro as well.

I could turn the key and there would be no sound at all. Holding the key would sometimes eventually engage the starter circuit to turn over.

I also at times had to get under the van and connect and disconnect the spade connector for the starter trigger wire, to get it to make better contact.

I believe my problem was caused by driving through water. It annealed the spade connector so it did not have spring tension any more. So for me the fix was to replace the connector, and encase the new one in silicone to reduce water cooling the connector. Not driving through water helps too, but I really like fording streams..

[tencentlife]

There's another failure mode for these starters, I discovered recently, a mechanical one. I started my engine and noticed a strange whine, which I quickly ascertained was the starter still being engaged with the ring gear. Glad I caught it while I was at home, it would have surely burned out the starter motor if it had done this unchecked on one of my 2-hour drives to Burque.

There are at least two styles of solenoids on the Bosch starters (this is on my Syncro but I don't think it's different on a 2WD), and this is the first one like this I have seen. It was held to the starter chassis with 3 Torx-head bolts instead of plain slotted screws, that may or may not be a telltale.

Anyway, the old-style solenoids had a fat copper contactor disc right on the end of the plunger, that would bridge two copper poles when the solenoid coil pulled the plunger back; the plunger of course also pulls in the lever to throw the pinion into the ring gear as the motor is switched on by the contactor. The plunger pushes directly against a strong spring. When the plunger returns it opens the circuit because it effectively is the contactor.

This other style has a brass contactor pin in the bottom of the solenoid housing. When the plunger pulls in it pushes the brass pin down to activate the motor. The plunger has the same strong spring to return it, but the brass pin has its own little spring to open the contactor on its own when the solenoid returns.

The little spring was broken, so the contactor wouldn't open. The pinion would pull back OK (the strong spring takes care of that) but the motor remains switched on, spinning madly away.

Luckily I had another used starter just like it, swapped the good solenoid from that and down the road!
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/

Please don't PM here, I will not reply.

Experience is kryptonite to doctrine.

[shizzon]

I notice that everytime i start my car i hear a clicking, and it sounds like its coming from underneath the front drivers seat... is this the relay doing something funny because of the ground issue described above?
_________________
1989 Bostig Syncro Westy

[NorthernStar]

Thanks guys. I do have an aux battery with the battery relay under the driver's seat, and I'll bet that is causing the problem. I'll try the rewiring fix. Great forum!
Rick Z

[tencentlife]

[JoshG]

Could someone please explain what the "HOT START" problem is for those who have not yet experienced it.

[NorthernStar]

Just to be sure that I have this right - I wired an aux battery cut-out relay using the existing refrigerator heater relay under the seat following a diagram I found on the internet. Pin 85 on the new cut-out relay is wired to pin 85 on the fridge relay and then is shown to go to the “dash”, which I assume is the ignition switch. It is the .5mm red/blk wire which I also assume is the red/blk wire that you refer to Jay. Am I right in thinking that this red/blk wire goes to ground through the ignition switch when it is turned on and connects the D+ on pin 86 from the alternator through to ground? So I should disconnect this wire from from pin 85 on both relays, tape them up and not use them, and instead hard-wire these pins (85) directly to ground? If I do this will the main and aux battery charging circuits still work OK?

[thatvwbusguy]

Hot start or hard start syndrome shows up as vehicle that will typically crank and start from cold (first start of the day, or after cooling completely), but cranks slowly or not at all when trying to restart after a drive cycle at full operating temperature. This is by no means a VW only phenomenon, but it has become so prevalent in aging VW's that it has come to be thought of by many people as an "old VW problem".

I was about to start posting an explanation of why this happens in our vans, but I found this post on another forum and I think it explains the root causes pretty well.

"Electricity and wiring are kind of funny. Unlike most things that prefer to work when warm, electricity likes the conductors to be as cold as possible. This is because resistance in the circuit is always the lowest when the conductor is cold.

So as the underhood temperatures increase so does the resistance in all of the wiring. The series wound DC motors that make up our little starters draw a heck of a lot of amperage and they are sensitive to changes in the wiring resistance. Throw in a slightly worn or dirty set of brushes or a worn commutator and you get a slow cranking starter. Add a slightly discharged battery to the mix and you're stuck on the side of the road one steamy hot summer afternoon."

The long runs of 20+ year old wiring in our ignition systems coupled with marginally sized wiring from the factory (especially in 80-85 vans) makes the hard start condition a very common reality in our vans. To completely rectify the situation, the best solution would be to replace all of the wiring in the starter circuit with new properly gauged wire. Since most people can't (or at least won't) do this, the easiest work around is to install a hard start relay, which will provide more current to the starter solenoid and assist with better starting.

An added benefit of installing a hard start relay is that it removes the starting current from the ignition switch, only using the switch to trigger the relay. Cooler running, longer lasting ignition switches are the result.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[thatvwbusguy]

If the two relays are daisy-chained together at terminal #85 and terminal #85 is being used as the ground (connected to the black/red wire), then yes, remove the red/black wire completely and ground both relays to the chassis with jumper wires and you should be back in business.

Check for voltage present at the output terminal when the relay is triggered to be sure that all is well. I have seen installations where the constant power is attached to terminal #30 and some where it is on #87. Probe both wires with your multimeter to see which is carrying the constant power and which is the output wire once the relay is triggered.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH


If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.

[NorthernStar]

Thanks Jay. I'll try it this weekend.
Rick Z