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Smallcar bellhousing clutch options
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mtnhome Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

I blew it earlier this year when I contacted Fred and he said he one pedal left. I ended up have to travel out of the country for work and didn't get back to him.
He is apparently out of the pedal mod business now.
About a month ago I emailed him and asked if he would consider selling his info on this mod. My plan was to either have another batch of parts made up with one of my companies suppliers and sell the parts and instructions or just put it out there for the community.
I never heard back from Fred. Perhaps he isn't interested or in all likelihood, too busy with paying work to worry about this. I just pulled the trigger on a Suarugears reversed set and will probably sell my NIB Smallcar bellhousing to help fund it.
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mackaymanx
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

You can do the clutch pedal mod yourself, it is not exceptionally difficult.

This is my go at it, does seem to work ok but I have only used it in the driveway as the vehicle is not ready for the road yet.

Scroll down a bit.

http://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/viewtopic.php?tid=104200&page=4
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ejimmi
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

I spoke with Fred about 9 months ago as there was a problem with the pedal i got from him. It was hard to get in touch with him but once i did he was super cool about it and sent me a new one once he understood what had happened.

I too offered to take the reigns from Fred, and build them in the future, but got no response. I did not want to build them without his blessing so i did not pursue it.

A month or so ago a friend tried to contact him with no luck, so I ended up pulling my pedal and making a copy for him.

I guess since Fred is not responding, and mackaymanx showed his mod, its ok to describe the solution to benefit the samba members.

mackaymanx version should work fine, Ideally you want to move the MC and the clevis point the same distance but i dont think mackaymanx 1mm variance will make much of a difference.

Basically what happens is you are moving the clevis connection 13mm closer to the main pivot of the clutch pedal. "you will have to cut or grind the lever off the pedal arm and modify it to accomplish this"
By shortening the distance from the pivot point to the lever point the length of travel is shortened. You then need to space the MC the same 13mm so the pushrod stays parallel.

Heres a quick sketch, If you want a computer drawing youll have to pay Sodo to make it Laughing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Sodo will draw anything for a guy who's that good at pulling the clutch pedal!
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:59 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

I have 7 broken slave on my desk....

I'm a bit pissed off. This WAS NOT happening before, something as changed in the bell housing design.

All slave went simply to far = the spacer is not long enough.

Thanks for the drawing, I will find a solution and take picture.

For now, admire those... (pissed)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Broken.... seal

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



No more beveled edge to stop the slave to go further

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


How many do you want????

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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xoo00oox
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

I think I'm failing to see the big advantage of this set-up. I've bolted plenty of the adapter plates on over the year. You pretty much just forget they are there, I've never had a problem with one or desired another way to bolt the Subaru to the vanagon transmission.
I read plenty of problems with this bellhousing and clutch. Am I missing something here? What is the advantage?
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:54 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Subaru starter, subaru clutch and flywheel that work well with the engine rather than bigger gear reduction VW starter and heavier duty VW clutch. Getting away from the failure prone VW slave cylinder was an advantage to me as well.
The bellhousing wasn't ready for prime time as shipped from Smallcar though.
I have a adapter plate and bellhousng conversion.
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xoo00oox
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

syncrodoka wrote:
Subaru starter and subaru clutch that work well with the engine rather than bigger gear reduction VW starter and heavier duty VW clutch. Getting away from the failure prone VW slave cylinder was an advantage to me as well.
The bellhousing wasn't ready for prime time as shipped from Smallcar though.
I have a adapter plate and bellhousng conversion.


I agree with you on the starter, the TDi one is a great fix for that. The clutch though? Were people having problems with them that I just haven't seen or heard myself? I see the Vanagon slave cylinders holding up very well and they are inexpensive and easy to replace. I've not seen myself or heard of the stock clutch being woo weak for the Subaru.
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

The SS Bell Housing Slave is a VW stock part used in many VW cars.

It's NOT a problem part IN the cars. Even If I'm no fan of internal slave it's still not a bad parts.

I just don't get what as change over the months / year

Ben
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syncrodoka
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

The TDI starter is a great upgrade for an adapter plate converstion but the subaru starter in the bellhousing conversion is easier to deal with- both syncros have a locker.
The clutch slave is cheap but I would't call it a simple replacement in a syncro. The last one I stuck in my truck I had sleeved and rebuilt myself has been fine so far but it cost way more than a new one.
The heavier subaru flywheel is easier to keep going at low RPM offroad where the stock VW clutch on the lighter adapter flywheel needs more finesse. I have hear of people smoking stock VW clutches in the past at SDM for example.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

The Smallcar bellhousing concept is 'clean' and it allows use of the Subaru starter, which is a big plus.
If you get a Subaru starter __with your engine__ this is good too. Less other stuff to buy. And the Subaru starter is very small, easy to install.

Folks say that the mis-match between the Vanagon master which expects a 19mm slave and the Golf slave (being linear not a linkage - plus a volume mismatch) causes the clutch action to be abrupt.

I had a problem with the clutch slave belching its fluid out at the very beginning, 1,000 miles from home. It was not a happy moment. But now 36,000 miles later, I've had no problems with the clutch slave (knock on wood). It's possible that I had "air in the line" protecting my slave. Smallcar eventually learned the spacer was required, but never contacted me.

But now I have limited the clutch pedal throw with a crude device. I will do the Fred mod to my clutch pedal someday, and am looking forward to restoring proper clutch pedal feathering (modulation).

===============

There's a pretty significant problem with Smallcar's drain hole placement that leaves 1/2" of contaminated oil in your trans. Your big engine is generating more metal in your gear oil, and at the same time, the Smallcar bellhousing has a "dam" on the bottom that prevents you from draining this steel out. Not good.

Smallcar has a strange way of satisfying customers. If they would jump on these little problems immediately they could be the heroes, for all their innovations. But they've been pumping this KNOWN error out for 7 years now. It can be fixed in 5 minutes but most customers don't find out about it until the new engine is all bolted up, then start the expensive process of dooming their transmissions.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


With the RJES bellhousing you can drain the bottom to get the funk out. And the magnet is at the very bottom too, it can pull more of the stuff out. Smallcar method puts the magnet pretty high up, and in a 'hole' where it can't pull stuff from the bottom.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I covered the top of the hole because I have a cooler/pump system, I wanted to suck ALL the gear oil out with as moch velocity as possible to get the trash out. For a simple drain you wouldn't have to cover it as I did (but it's easy to do).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It's easy to finish their job (modify it) if you have the bellhousing OFF. Impossible once it's put together.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

As mush as this is very interesting Sodo, this is the least of my concern, most folks won't probably never change that oil again.

How did you limit your clutch pedal travel? Stock spacer?

I'm doing 2 thing today, a mechanical adjustable pedal stopper..
and trying a 30mm (instead of 20mm) spacer.

Ben
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Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

ftp2leta wrote:
As mush as this is very interesting Sodo, this is the least of my concern, most folks won't probably never change that oil again.

How did you limit your clutch pedal travel? Stock spacer?

I'm doing 2 thing today, a mechanical adjustable pedal stopper..
and trying a 30mm (instead of 20mm) spacer.

Ben


I think you're mostly right about the oil. Some of the Syncro owners will get interested after a $5,000 tranny bill (or two or three).

Here's my crude device to limit the clutch pedal throw.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was designing the opposite... something attach to the floor but your is more simple! Bravo

Ben
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Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Heres another easy way. Just clamps onto the pedal, adjustable. Or you could drill holes in the pedal then you don't need plates on both sides. M6 holes are plenty big to hold, it's only like 30 lbs pedal pressure.

And it can be removed later without leaving holes in the floor if you can get a Fred Pedal.

A wood block under the carpet is not a bad way.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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ejimmi
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

ftp2leta wrote:
I have 7 broken slave on my desk....

I'm a bit pissed off. This WAS NOT happening before, something as changed in the bell housing design.

All slave went simply to far = the spacer is not long enough.

Thanks for the drawing, I will find a solution and take picture.

For now, admire those... (pissed)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Broken.... seal

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



No more beveled edge to stop the slave to go further

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


How many do you want????

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well there goes my "metal body" theory I posted earlier.....Just out of curiosity what brand are the slaves? Any OEM VW?
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Quote:
Well there goes my "metal body" theory I posted earlier.....Just out of curiosity what brand are the slaves? Any OEM VW?


VW/Audi part # :05A 141 671 F (metal version)

Ben
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Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
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ftp2leta
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

I did a lot of testing today, calculating the amount of oil in both the SC internal slave and the OEM master. Here is my test system, a big thanks to Sodo. This will not be the final product, I find it big a bit for nothing.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Good stuff. That's a simple design. Once you know the dimensions it doesn't need to be adjustable one size should fit all. Smallcar's spacer solution **should be** equivalent to the "clutch pedal block" just that it's more troublesome to install.

ftp2leta wrote:
calculating the amount of oil in both the SC internal slave and the OEM master


I think an equally important part of the problem is the leverage of the VW slave/fork needs to be re-produced for the correct feel / modulation. Which is why the Fred mod to the clutch pedal is the better solution.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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kalispell365
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:


I think an equally important part of the problem is the leverage of the VW slave/fork needs to be re-produced for the correct feel / modulation. Which is why the Fred mod to the clutch pedal is the better solution.



BINGO!
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