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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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iceracer wrote: |
My guy says the Slave is from all the ones with a 6 speed trans. |
Is it this simple?
All VW cars with manual 6-speed?
and no 5-speed?
This is getting confusing to figger out who all to ask for help.
If someone with a 6speed would just measure us a clutch spurt.... (or 3) _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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markswagen Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018 Posts: 956 Location: san diego
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Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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I have spoken to Fred at length about the modification, he said his biggest problem, was A, not having enough pedals to modify, doing one at a time doesn't make financial sense, and B, the customers who don't return the core, those two factors, have cut his willingness to convert more pedals.
Sodo wrote: |
VanagonFred did good work, but lots more people still need the mod than Fred was willing to manufacture,
and ship,
and exchange,
and stuff. |
_________________ markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
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iceracer Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2006 Posts: 949 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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He did mention Audi TT was also sometimes 5 speed. Someone out there on samba must have one of these to do the test. No? _________________ 86 Syncro Wolfsburg edition
63 Beetle (The Iceracer) |
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16CVs Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004 Posts: 4020 Location: Redwood City, California
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Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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[quote=the customers who don't return the core, those two factors, have cut his willingness to convert more pedals.
I found with my window motors that if the cord charge was more then. the rebuild that you would get them back 100 % percent of the time. This took me a while to realize, and the people that scoff at the fee were not going to return the motor to me.
It’s worked for me for over 5 years.
Stacy _________________ 1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread. |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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markswagen wrote: |
I have spoken to Fred at length about the modification, he said his biggest problem, was A, not having enough pedals to modify, doing one at a time doesn't make financial sense, and B, the customers who don't return the core, those two factors, have cut his willingness to convert more pedals.
Sodo wrote: |
VanagonFred did good work, but lots more people still need the mod than Fred was willing to manufacture,
and ship,
and exchange,
and stuff. |
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I am sad to see this is STILL an issue!
I do stuff with Fred and if I do not see him, I talk to him, about once a week and lately almost every day for a different project.
I got tired chasing clutch pedals. Removing them at the bone yard, when I could find them, took time too.
A higher core charge, as above, is likely the answer. I do not know what exactly happened with all the pedals.
The procedure, as I recall, to modify a pedal was, as above, to remove and weld. In the case of what Fred does, it is remove and weld on a new part, as I recall. That was held in place in a fixture. It has been a long time.....
In the mean time, my pedal just works. We did no more than replace the slave and put the new pedal in. Works better than original stock. It is wonderful. Nothing has been done do it in years. No bleeding. No special nothing.
Fred drove my van recently. He commented that the series of successive mods to my van make it a pleasure to drive. I am so used to it, I hardly notice.
I am concerned this is still an issue out there...... _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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r39o I don't understand your post.
Are you thinking that Fred has done so many clutch pedals that there shouldn't be many vans out there still needing the mod? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Probably bummed that there are so many Sambarus still out there. |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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I am concerned there are people who still have this problem. Thought it should have been resolved long ago by Small Car. We never talk about the clutch pedal thing anymore. I basically forgot until while searching for something else I spotted recent posts to the thread. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Probably bummed that there are so many Sambarus still out there. |
HUH?
Not me. I am stoked by the fact there are so many running around out there in the world.
It is the fact that the crappy clutch actuation issue with the Small Car clutch system is still an issue.
The modified pedal makes it work smoother and lighter than the stock VW one ever was even when new. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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t3 kopf Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2012 Posts: 1114 Location: over by 'der
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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zeit hates the fact that subaru powered vws exist. Just let him troll himself out of the thread. _________________ '90 Carat w/ '95 phase 1 EJ22 OBD2 conversion |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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r39o wrote: |
I am concerned there are people who still have this problem. Thought it should have been resolved long ago by Small Car. We never talk about the clutch pedal thing anymore. I basically forgot until while searching for something else I spotted recent posts to the thread. |
r39o I think the problems (that people are aware of) stopped when Smallcar added the master cylinder spacer.
The spacer does not repair the abrupt clutch actuation, and people probably are just unaware the clutch could be "butter-smooth".
They "get used to it" unaware that if could be better. It's off their radar.
=====================
Here's what Smallcar.com lists as bellhousing benefits:
Much stronger engine to transaxle connection, plus 1999 and later engines use an additional 4 bolts.
Better clutch options
A reliable starter with more torque
Super smooth clutch disengagement, no more stiff and glitchy pedal or $100 cross shaft
No relocation or heat issues with the slave cylinder for turbo engined Vans
Heavier flywheel for better low speed operation
The starter is easier to access in a Syncro - Big bonus for Syncro owners; the transmission can be removed and replaced much easier with the engine installed!
If the flywheel ever needs replacing, the cost is $30-50 for used or $200 or so for new compared to over $350 for the custom adapter type flywheel
To re-clarify the charges against the Smallcar Bellhousing on page 15 of this long thread....
As I understand it, there are 5 main problems with the smallcar bellhousing where #4 is "dubious".
I have this Smallcar bellhousing, and have solved the clutch-action problem 100% by moving the actuator hole 13mm ( 11-13mm? ).
I have solved the oil-change-contamination problem.
Only the "input spline issue" remains open, I am a little afraid of that leaving me stranded, and need more info.
The Subaru starter is a WINNER of course, zero problems and OEM matched to the engine. I've had to R&R the transaxle so many times it's nice that it's small. Perhaps the flywheel weight and flywheel replacement issues are also winners?
1) The clutch slave cylinder is not matched properly to the Vanagon master cylinder. It uses less fluid volume than the OEM unit, thus the Vanagon master cyl can over-extend the slave, and destroy it. This requires transaxle removal to replace the (internal) slave. This problem was "solved" some years ago by the addition of a spacer that limits the clutch pedal travel, and thus limits the volume of fluid sent to the slave. This eliminates the possibility of over-extending and damaging the slave cylinder. Smallcar never contacted me to inform of this (necessary) solution. I have never seen this spacer myself but here is the spacer instructions on smallcar.com
2) Because the chosen slave cylinder is too small for the Vanagon master cylinder, the clutch action is "more abrupt". It may not be noticeable on "road vanagons" but if you use your clutch for any 'technical' driving offroad you may notice it. For example driving up onto rocks and stuff when leveling the van, you will notice that it's takes more effort to finesse. That's because the 'release band' where the clutch 'feathers' (slips), is about 20% narrower than OEM. YOu will probably get used to this thus it's not a deal-breaker. But butter-smooth clutch action can be restored with some effort (re-drilling the hole etc, or getting ahold of a "fred-mod" pedal). And it's not just "easy" to R&R the clutch pedal.
3) I've heard reports that the input shaft splined coupler is extended about 1/2 inch and prone to failure. Where the splines strip on either the coupler or the input shaft. This is a big deal - the van stops dead-in-the-water, and requires transaxle removal (bellhousing removal too). Mine has not failed in the 10 years I've had it. I've heard of failures but not seen them on TheSamba. And I don't know if the bellhousing has been changed to restore complete spline engagement.
4) This is a dubious charge.... but I've often heard it said that it's ultimately stupid to choose the VW Golf (etc) slave cylinder inside the bellhousing - that you cannot replace. Do the VW Golf fellers have trouble with their internal slave cylinders? I think they go the distance. The Vanagon slave cylinder is outside the bellhousing thus easily replaceable. Well I've had the same Golf slave in my van for 10 years. And I read often about Vanagon clutch forks (inside the bellhousing) breaking (and recently seizing on the bushing). Which is a common Vanagon problem of equal severity, solvable by re-weld & lube and also requires transaxle removal. Folks also fault the VW Golf (etc) slave bearing for resting spring-loaded against the clutch fingers, spinning 100% of the time like the slovenly driver who rests their foot on the clutch pedal. Well, I have not heard of problems with that design, and it seems to work on the Golf (etc). It's not the only bearing in the system that spins full-time, it seems bearings can handle spinning if properly sized.
5) The transaxle oil drain hole can trap about 1/2 inch of steel-contaminated lubricant, to pre-contaminate your new clean oil. Here's a pic comparing the Smallcar bellhousing to the similar RJES bellhousing. The simple fact that you are raising the load on this antique transaxle suggests you should ensure the BEST possible lubrication. Pre-contaminating your fresh new lubricant is a step in the wrong direction, it's anti-maintenance. This can be dealt with by grinding/filing/drilling out the little 1/2 inch high 'dam' at the drain hole. But it has to be done BEFORE bellhousing installation. This is a Smallcar responsibility of course, it should never leave their facility with this problem, but there are hundreds of them out there.
OK is this a reasonably complete p15 SUMMARY of the Smallcar Bellhousing "problems"??
If I've missed anything please reply.
Having solved (most) of the problems I LIKE my Smallcar bellhousing.
Of course it would be better if Smallcar would solve these problems.
Or at least reach out to their customers and help them to have the best experience.
I have these questions .....
these could have been solve years ago but nobody knows.....
because Smallcar does not communicate with their customers......
---->Does anyone know?
1) WHAT YEAR Smallcar started to specify the clutch master cylinder spacer?
2) Does a "current" Smallcar bellhousing now employ the full engagement of the input shaft coupler? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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DirtyBlueVan Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2013 Posts: 122 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Sodo wrote: |
r39o wrote: |
I am concerned there are people who still have this problem. Thought it should have been resolved long ago by Small Car. We never talk about the clutch pedal thing anymore. I basically forgot until while searching for something else I spotted recent posts to the thread. |
r39o I think the problems (that people are aware of) stopped when Smallcar added the master cylinder spacer.
The spacer does not repair the abrupt clutch actuation, and people probably are just unaware the clutch could be "butter-smooth".
They "get used to it" unaware that if could be better. It's off their radar.
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I would argue its not an issue at all, I wouldn't call it abrupt or hard to drive. _________________ 1989 Syncro Westfalia 2.5 smallcar subie |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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DirtyBlueVan wrote: |
Sodo wrote: |
r39o wrote: |
I am concerned there are people who still have this problem. Thought it should have been resolved long ago by Small Car. We never talk about the clutch pedal thing anymore. I basically forgot until while searching for something else I spotted recent posts to the thread. |
r39o I think the problems (that people are aware of) stopped when Smallcar added the master cylinder spacer.
The spacer does not repair the abrupt clutch actuation, and people probably are just unaware the clutch could be "butter-smooth".
They "get used to it" unaware that if could be better. It's off their radar.
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I would argue its not an issue at all, I wouldn't call it abrupt or hard to drive. |
The release band of the Smallcar clutch modulation is about 20% narrower.
As said, you can get used to it. It's more noticeable if you have to feather your clutch for some driving tasks, such as off-road and 4x4 stuff.
If you drive the van with a modified pedal that has re-matched the slave to the master cylinder, you will notice how much better the clutch action is.
This modification will take "significant effort" to R&R the clutch pedal.
If your pedal is sloppy (lift it up & down, feel for slop) you MUST fix that anyway.
Then it's worthwhile to do the mod.
If your pedal is tight, it might not be worth the effort as your foot-pedal skill has already transformed the abrupt to normal. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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r39o Samba Polizei
Joined: May 18, 2005 Posts: 9800 Location: San Diego
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Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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I HATED IT!
There is a hill with a turn lane that frequently has a red light that I have to drive nearly every day. It was extremely difficult to negotiate that turn with the clutch the way it was before.
Then when the cylinder blew out, I thought either something was done wrong or I had a bad cylinder or just my driving.
I almost went with a Kennedy setup.
But bless Fred, who thrives on a challenge, to come up with a better solution.
Took about a week or two to figure out how though.
Once you try it, you will truly wonder how you lived with the old one.
I let everybody try mine and the reaction is near universally the same. _________________ "Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....
Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently) |
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iceracer Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2006 Posts: 949 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Resurrecting this post! I bought a spare clutch pedal. Tonight I drilled a new pivot hole 10mm from the original hole as a test since 11mm to 13mm is good per prior posts. My new pivot hole is a tad too high - no pics as of yet - but I think I can make it work with a bit of grinding on the pedal and the pivot - I hope.
The fact that my new pin hole is a tad too high should not matter as the pivot pin bolt is adjustable so really as long as I can get the proper movement of the pivot I think I will be good.
Luckily the pedal I purchased included the entire brake pedal assembly so I can bench test the entire setup with the clutch master mounted to determine the proper set up prior to installing in my van.
Super excited to to see how this feels afterwards. I intend to keep installed my own creation of the pedal stop mounted to the pedal - pics at a later date. _________________ 86 Syncro Wolfsburg edition
63 Beetle (The Iceracer) |
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iceracer Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2006 Posts: 949 Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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I finished my new altered pedal and OMG what a difference. Turns out my new pivot pin hole is 12mm. I adjusted the pivot pin rod at 2 and 3/4 inches minus 1/2 turn. No slop in pedal and probably could have turned it in one full turn which would aid in getting the main brake pedal pin to line up for installation.
The difference in operation is night and day. With the new heavy duty Red pressure plate from smallcar and the VW vanagon stock disc the shifting is perfect and the pedal force is much less than before all due to movement of the fulcrum point.
I used 12mm spacers and longer bolts from a local hardware store to move the clutch master. Difficult part on my van which is an 86 was moving the clutch master back because it has a hard line for the clutch fluid versus flexible lines in latter models.
This is the fix for the smallcar build and smallcar should be offering this along with their kits. IMO.
Thank you to all who worked on this over the years and figured out how to make this happen.
What a joy it is to drive once again. I cant believe I have been driving my van for 10 yrs the old way.
One more point is I use a pedal stop I bolted to the clutch pedal which hits the floor at 2 and 1/4 away from floor. Mine is non adjustable unlike others but works. Peace out. _________________ 86 Syncro Wolfsburg edition
63 Beetle (The Iceracer) |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 9:02 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Does anyone have feedback on where to get a clutch slave/bearing?
The old part 0A5141671F has gon thru several iterations and is now 0A5141671P
=============
You know....?
This internal slave actuator doesn't sound as sketchy as it's made out to be
…..(here in the land of external slave cylinders).
It's used in ~325 VW models and the dealers don’t stock them.
Which suggests its a reliable item.
It doesn't have any seal problems (is it a bellows?).
The cross-shaft bearings don't get stuck and the welds don't break.
Ive had a disc failure, and a pressure plate problem in the 12 years I’ve been using this one clutch bearing/actuator.
But my slave actuator is 12 years old and hasn't given me any trouble. It's metal, not plastic.
And I reduced the pedal travel to avoid over-extension.
Anyway my trans is out (for the dreaded 2009-2011 Smallcar input shaft coupler failure. Which is a ticking time bomb! ) and I want to buy a new slave just to be sure.
I want a VW OEM unit, not aftermarket.
Anytips on the best place to get one?
👍🏽👍🏽 _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Ebay, I got the LUK model which used to be metal, now plastic.
You can shave 10mm off the bellhousing gasket surface on the old bellhousings, I just did it for a customer a few months ago, just space the transmission front mount on 2 WD accordingly. . For Syncro, you can't obviously, the engine has to move forward. _________________ Silicone Steering Boots and 930 Cv boots for sale in the classifieds.
Syncro transmission upgrade parts in the Classifieds.
Subaru EJ22+UN1 5 speed transmission
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=416343
Syncro http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4...num+gadget |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 9:15 pm Post subject: Re: Smallcar bellhousing clutch options |
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Yes Dangit, thanks for that note.
For the engine to come forward I have to shorten my skid bars.
But I can do this.🤙🏽
I measured my 2009 Smallcar bellhousing 131mm.
A later version I measured is 123mm.
131-123=8mm
I don’t know the year of the 123mm.
Where did you get the 10mm number? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6316 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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