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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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 Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:01 pm Post subject: Twin Plug Dual distributor build |
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I've decided to run twin plugs on my 36'er. Obviously I'll need to get a hold of a dual dist. Since all the ones I've seen are too modern looking I've decide to make my own drive.
My plans are to make it out of 2 blocks of 6061 aluminum, use two modified "019" dizzy's to fit the drive. It will be a sidewinder style with one shaft driving the other off-set to one side, gear driven, with oil lubrication taken from the engine.
Day one.. Preliminary housing machining
Here are the gears sized up in the housing
Once the cover is done, i'll post an update. This is gonna be fun 
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1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Last edited by Ninamashr on Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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grueni
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Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 576
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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beautiful!
i will also go twin plug but dizziLESS. when i see this i wish go back to dizzi 
will watch this beauty with interrest.
i think you will not need the oiling from engine. do it like roots blowers, just its own oil. and it will drive "only" half engine speed. my spercharger drive 3,2 time engine speed with own chamber for oil.
have fun with it.
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1956 oval 1192cc 36hp Supercharged 70HP at 3900RPM / 150NM at 2000RPM @ 13 psi
1960 1641cc Twin scroll turbocharged, intercooled @17 psi 318nm/3430rpm 160hp/4790rpm
with cb2280 cheater cam 222°@ 0.05" |
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| grueni wrote: |
i think you will not need the oiling from engine. do it like roots blowers, just its own oil. and it will drive "only" half engine speed. my spercharger drive 3,2 time engine speed with own chamber for oil.
have fun with it. |
So how fast would you estimate the dist shaft to rotate on the engine? The gears I am using recommend that I use use a lighter viscosity oil the faster they spin. I am also concerned with removing heat from the gears so I plan on having the oil exit and drop back down into the case.
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1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer |
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gimmesomeshelter
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Joined: May 08, 2004
Posts: 1468
Location: San Carlos, CA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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You might want to check with shieldsj. I believe he has a dual distributor setup.
Precission Matters makes a dual ignition setup for 356's. Here's a pic of the insides.
Paul
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Last edited by gimmesomeshelter on Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 74739
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Bosch made a dual distributor back in the 60's
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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grueni
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2008
Posts: 576
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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you can do it this way. but the 1/2 rpm of engine speed of the dizzy with nearly no load will not make that much heat. the chamber for the 3 gears is big enough and via the rotating there will be oil all over.
just a question. why using 3 gears and not 2? space?
_________________
1956 oval 1192cc 36hp Supercharged 70HP at 3900RPM / 150NM at 2000RPM @ 13 psi
1960 1641cc Twin scroll turbocharged, intercooled @17 psi 318nm/3430rpm 160hp/4790rpm
with cb2280 cheater cam 222°@ 0.05" |
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Ninamashr
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| gimmesomeshelter wrote: |
You might want to check with shieldsj. I believe he has a dual distributor setup.
Paul |
I already spoke to Jim. His setup is very different than mine and I'm not at liberty to tell anyone how he made his.
_________________
1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Last edited by Ninamashr on Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Bosch made a dual distributor back in the 60's |
I'd love to see a pic , BTW, I'll be cutting down two 019 dists, close your eyes Glenn. 
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1957 Allstate trailer |
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| grueni wrote: |
you can do it this way. but the 1/2 rpm of engine speed of the dizzy with nearly no load will not make that much heat. the chamber for the 3 gears is big enough and via the rotating there will be oil all over.
just a question. why using 3 gears and not 2? space? |
So the dist shaft rotates at half the engine speed? If that's true then lubricating with some thin oil should work.
I am using 3 gears because I need both dist shafts to turn in the same direction. The center gear will turn the outside gear in the right direction.
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1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer |
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earthquake
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Joined: January 10, 2008
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Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Ninamashr
Have you thought just adapting a cap from a Nissan Nap-Z motor from the 80's they were twin plug? I think ford had a twin plug 2.3 in the ranger pickup that might have a cap to adapt as well.
Casey
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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Casey, I thought about that option, but, I preferred the vintage speed look of twin 019's on a 36er.
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1957 Allstate trailer |
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| gimmesomeshelter wrote: |
Precission Matters makes a dual ignition setup for 356's. Here's a pic of the insides.
Paul |
That's an awesome setup for dual carbs, but, but I have one major problem. I am running 3 carbs and that setup would place one dizzy right underneath the throttle arm on the center carb causing interference, so I couldn't accelerate.
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1957 Allstate trailer |
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anmilsurp
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Joined: May 12, 2010
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Location: Tukwila Washington
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| What's the number and parts supplier of the gears? Are they keyed or just set screw attached? |
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Low Bräu
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Joined: December 12, 2003
Posts: 346
Location: Merritt Island, FL
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Looks great but how much is this baby going to weigh? I don't know what your goal is with this engine but I can only assume you're trying to squeeze the most HP out of an engine that doesn't produce much power to begin with. Now you're turning three large gears in an oil bath to only to rotate a rotor that should spin with little to no resistance. I know the power loss is minimal but then so is the output of a 36hp motor. Free up hp by making things move with less resistance and less weight. Consider what porsche did with the 964 twin plug. They had a sealed bearing and a rubber drive belt. Just my thoughts. Keep the pics coming, your craftsmanship looks great!
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Low Bräu wrote: |
Looks great but how much is this baby going to weigh? I don't know what your goal is with this engine but I can only assume you're trying to squeeze the most HP out of an engine that doesn't produce much power to begin with. Now you're turning three large gears in an oil bath to only to rotate a rotor that should spin with little to no resistance. I know the power loss is minimal but then so is the output of a 36hp motor. Free up hp by making things move with less resistance and less weight. Consider what porsche did with the 964 twin plug. They had a sealed bearing and a rubber drive belt. Just my thoughts. Keep the pics coming, your craftsmanship looks great!
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I'm not sure how much it will weigh? I'll check once I am done, My guess is about 3 lbs? My goal is to have all my other components ready and tested before I start rebuilding an true oldspeed engine. I have other plans for better cooling, and a better intake system, etc;. I'll post those up in a month or so. What Porsche did with the 964 looks pretty reasonable but with any rubber timing belt you have the issue of the belt stretching so the timing will eventually be off. With properly lubricated gears I don't think that will be a problem plus with this setup I can adjust exactly when I want the spark to come on for the second plug in the cylinder. I'll be able to overlap the timing so the spark burns longer and more fuel gets used instead of being wasted. It's gonna involve some engineering, but, I knew that coming in.
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1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Last edited by Ninamashr on Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| anmilsurp wrote: |
| What's the number and parts supplier of the gears? Are they keyed or just set screw attached? |
Anmil, The outside gears are going to be pinned, like the gear drive coupler on a normal dist, to their respective shafts, the center gear will spin on a pressed pin shaft and be held in place with an "E" clip and bronze bushings. I got the gears from SDPI (Stock Drive Products Inc) I'll post up the p/n's when I get in tomorrow.
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1957 Karmann Kabriolet "Franky"
1957 Allstate trailer
Last edited by Ninamashr on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 74739
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Ninamashr wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Bosch made a dual distributor back in the 60's |
I'd love to see a pic , BTW, I'll be cutting down two 019 dists, close your eyes Glenn. |
If you want i have a few bodies that are broken at the o-ring if you want.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies."
Groucho Marx |
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Ninamashr
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Joined: October 12, 2005
Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Ninamashr wrote: |
| Glenn wrote: |
| Bosch made a dual distributor back in the 60's |
I'd love to see a pic , BTW, I'll be cutting down two 019 dists, close your eyes Glenn. |
If you want i have a few bodies that are broken at the o-ring if you want. |
Thanks Glenn, that's not a bad idea, but, I'll still need the rest of the dizzy. It felt kind of wierd cutting up 2 perfectly running 019's right above the O-ring groove.  Here's a blank I made. It's the part that will pop into the case and will be welded to the bottom of the Dual Dist housing...
Glenn You can probrably identify this part, it's whats left when you press out the advance plate off an old 009 dist. I will be using it to extend the drive shaft of the main drive dist.
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1957 Allstate trailer |
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Ninamashr
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Posts: 1400
Location: City of Round Rock in the Great State of Texas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:33 am Post subject: |
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The lid is complete, time to move on to the base and extending the shaft
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1957 Allstate trailer |
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Blauhaus
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Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Beautiful machine work and thinking. Tuned in to see your progress!
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