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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Desertbusman wrote: |
And from where both you and I are standing, SG, both 26 and 37 are funny numbers. Or switching a couple plug wires and it only misses. |
they are funny numbers and I'm thinking snow job. It is an 009 so there is no other way to really time it properly except at full advance. Making it worse, does he even have a degree wheel or is this all by ear or some funky dial on a chinese timing light? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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A more appropriate SVDA distribitor for this thing would be money well spent.
While you are at it invest $30 and get a degree pulley. |
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HapyBus Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2004 Posts: 235
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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SGK, I dont know who you are reading, but the timing has not moved
from the 26*.
All I did was remove the distributor, tighten the lil screw holding the condensor onto the side, reinstall the distributor, check the plug wires like Aeromech suggested, and turned the key. I like the way it idled, the choke turned off, I took it for a spirited shakedown ride.
Prob solved... never adjusted the timing _________________ Beep Beep
HapyBus |
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HapyBus Samba Member
Joined: May 03, 2004 Posts: 235
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Why are you still insistant on 26 degrees and not what everyone here is recommending? And as SG mentioned, do you have a degree pulley? If not, then all bets are out the window. That has nothing to do with what type of timing light you use.
The type distributor you have is not causing your problems unless it is malfunctioning. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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RatCamper Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2008 Posts: 3305 Location: Australia
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hopping on the bandwagon. As long as you have the fancy timing thing humor everyone and change your max advance and take it for a drive. Idle is barely relevant. I can make a motor idle as smooth as silk but doing that tends to screw up the rest of its range.
What you are interested in is the best possible performance when the distributor is at full advance. That's where it counts. It counts because that's where the engine will be or at least be near during cruising and acceleration. Idling doesn't matter a damn. As long as it idles and doesn't detonate that's good. It's not pushing a load while idling.
The thing about tuning to 26deg max is this: your motor will feel alright, but it will be running hotter and it will be down on power. It may get going from idle a little better because retarded timing gives a bit more torque at really low revs I think, but generally speaking it is detrimental to the running of your motor.
If you are worried about hurting the feelings of the person who told you 26 deg, then don't tell them you changed it! That simple. _________________ Vehicle: 1975 Special order delivery walkthrough panel based pop-top camper (LCA / Sunliner). Motor: Nippon 1.8L Single port Wasserboxer, Transmission: 3 rib 002. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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the engine must be timed at 28 to 32 degrees BTDC at 3500 (when advance stops) RPM using a degree wheel . You cannot trust a timing light for this except when the light is set on -0- degrees unless you have someone who can test that light to a lab standard. It doesn't matter what you paid for it, most of the lights made for the last 30 years are not accurate enough on their advance scale to time an engine. The advance scale on the light can be used for a quick test only. You also want to verify that the timing is advancing and retarding smoothly. I have seen condensors go bad and they usually don't cause erratic timing unless they are leaking to ground and by doing so trigger a false pulse - although they sure will cause points to wear out quickly when bad. If the timing is too much retarded or advanced it will cause a hickup when you try to accelerate.
A degree wheel for the bus will look like this more or less:
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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Steve, what's this "unless" thing? You still need to know where the accurate TDC is to start with no matter what kind of light. Fancy lights arn't that exotic, are they? _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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Desertbusman wrote: |
Steve, what's this "unless" thing? You still need to know where the accurate TDC is to start with no matter what kind of light. Fancy lights arn't that exotic, are they? |
Mike - not sure what you are saying but my vote is always for a degree wheel and a light that is known to flash at -0- degrees. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I know we are some of the few that know about the need or purpose of the degree wheel. But I must not have read your post correctly. I thought it sounded like you need the degree wheel to know where 0/TDC is or else a calibrated light can find it for you instead. Who knows, maybe one of the new fancy phone apps can do it.
I much prefer my plain Jane light better along with a degreed pulley. All it does is flash when the ignition fires. It cares less about at what degree if flashes. That's my part of the task. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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Jody '71 Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2005 Posts: 2842 Location: Manassas VA
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:54 am Post subject: |
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Hapybus,
What kind of pulley do you have on there? If still stock, did someone mark it at 26?? Does it have the dimple on it it for 0 TDC?? Post a pic of your rear pulley if you can. Somewhere here on Samba is the printable version of the degree wheel pulley you can print out and cut out and lay it up against what pulley you have (if it's not a degree wheel pulley). You have to make sure your engine is at 0 degrees TDC on compression stroke for #1 cylinder. Then mark your pulley for the appropriate timing mark. As mentioned 26 is NOT it. _________________ '66 Beetle
2011 Hyundai Elantra Touring |
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71beetleman Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2011 Posts: 10 Location: los angeles
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: 71 beetle firing order |
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i have just replaced my dist. cap plugs wires and points.. im new at tinkering and i cant get her to start.. the bug is turning over and almost starting up but never gets there.. im afraid i have the wrong firing order?
i know everyone is talking about 37 deg total at 3k rpm and is this something i can tell my mechanic to do?
im considering taking vw mechanic courses here in LA does anyone have any suggestions? thanks everyone
-71beetleman |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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After replacing the points did you gap them to .016" with the rubbing block on the peak of a lobe on the distributor cam? When you replaced the wires did you remove one at a time and swap it so they didn't get mixed up? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Set the engine to TDC using the pulley mark. If you do not know for a fact what the marks on the stock pulley is telling you, go here
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=251672
Pull off the distributor cap and see which spark plug wire the rotor is pointing at. It will either be cylinder #1 or #3. If it really is at #1 cylinder and you want to confirm that, remove both valve covers and get your lovely assistant to move the engine 2" on each side of TDC with a wrench, while you observe the valves moving as she does that. If you really are at TDC for #1 cylinder, the #3 cyclinder valves will be tapping (like my fingers on the table after my 3rd cup of coffee). If it is the other way, it will be the #1 cylinder valves tapping.
Keep in mind the cylinders are:
FRONT (of the car= front of the engine)
3 1
4 2
REAR
Make sure the #1 spark plug wire is on the correct location on the distributor cap and the rfining order is 1-4-3-2.
Hook up the dwell meter and see if you are getting a dwell angle of 47º +/- 3º as you turn the engine over with the starter. If not adjust the points until you do. If you are not getting a signal to the dwell meter, we can go deepter.
This thing will start at TDC.
I don't know what distributor you have on there, but 37º BTDC will cook your engine in just a few minnutes.
We usually time them (assuming the distributor has a centrifical advance function) to between 28-32º BTDC when all of the advance it has to offer is all in ~ 3000-35000 RPMs WITH ANY VACUUM HOSES DISCONNECTED AT THE DISTRIBUTOR CAN. |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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71beetleman wrote: |
ii know everyone is talking about 37 deg total at 3k rpm and is this something i can tell my mechanic to do?
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No-no
The talking about 37 degrees started as a joke by funbus. The other joke is you keep insisting on 26 degrees. I say 28-30, Steve says 28-32. and so does everyone else say to set it somewhere in that range. So if you havn't yet got the message about where to set it someone else might jokingly suggest you set it at 42 or 18 or some other funny number.
Regardless, setting it at anynumber means absolutely nothing unless you accurately know where TDC actually is. Get a degree pulley and make life simple. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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I think the OP left the building... _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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71beetleman Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2011 Posts: 10 Location: los angeles
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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in reguards to the order i did replace the wires in the order they were connected ( assuming that they were correct before i changed them) but if im looking at the top of my dist. cap the order i have them plugged in is ( according to the valve numbers) the dist cap is bosch so it the rotor, the wires are EMPI
3 1
(5)
4 2
i dont have a dwell meter but i assume you cant set the points by "eyeballin') as for 0.16 is there any house hold tool i can use for that ie buisness card or credit card piece of paper? i used a buisness card..
i measured the gap at the high point of the dist. shaft
on the degree pulley i love it.. i just dont know how to use it ahahhahah!
im kinda getting it though... ive owned 5 beetles and a jetta .. my 71 being my current so ive been though the weeds with these cars.. im serious now that ive realized that im in love with VW's that i must know how to work on them and im excited in doing so!!!
lets say i get the dwell meter and the degree pulley.. what then?
im not familar with the degrees and setting advances.. i hate not knowing these things (but thats why i joined samba!) it sounds like i could "pulley it off"
with a little help from you guys.. thanks alot for your knowledge..
-71beetleman |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Hahahahaha.....
Your wires are in the wrong places, the firing order is 1-4-3-2, you have to find where the rotor points when #1 cylinder is at TDC for firing (there's 2 TDC's for #1 but only 1 where both valves are fully closed), then put wire #1 in the hole on the cap that lines up with the rotor, arrange the rest 4-3-2 in a CW order.
You can gap the points with a business card for now, but you'll have to check them with a dwell meter eventually and retime it as messing with the points alters the timing.
The degree pulley replaces the stock one either temporarily or permanently, once you have a stroboscopic timing light you'll understand how handy it is. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Desertbusman Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2005 Posts: 14655 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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71beetleman wrote: |
3 1
(5)
4 2
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I hope you are not saying that's how you plugged wires into the distributor cap. That's is the identification of what cylinder are located where on the engine. No need for it anyway since the numbers are already embossed on the cylinder tins.
A newbee using a business card won't cut the mustard. Don't waste your time and others time. Go buy a dwell meter and at least get a feeler gauge. If you had a business card from someone who could tutor you on VW engines that would be the card to use.
And since you're just learning, it would be worhwhile to buy a degree pulley and have your mechanic install it. _________________ 71 Superbug
71 Westy |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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$3.99 at Harbor Freight. You can use the .006 for the valves, .024 (depending on the year) for the spark plugs, and .016 for the points until you find a good dwell gauge. You are in LA so there must be 10 - 15 HF stores there. Don't be late as the sale is almost over.
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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