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Worknclassbug Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2006 Posts: 266
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: I think I cooked my Pertronix... |
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I've had the engine out of the Thing for a few months generally cleaning and painting parts and replacing leaky gaskets. I had removed the engine to repair a broken clutch fork and worn out clutch. While I had the engine out I decided to install an electronic ignition. I bench tested it (actually did put the distributor on my work bench and wired it up) and it worked great. I screwed up when I put the engine in the car and accidentally put the positive (ignition on) wire from the car on the negative post of the new coil. I of course had no fire. I quickly figured out the mistake and corrected the wiring but still nothing. I guess I cooked the module. I popped it out and put a new set of points in it's place and the engine fired right up. Looks like I'll just stick with the points for now. Anybody else have an issue like this? Are the Pertronix modules this touchy? _________________ 73 Thing
71 Karmann Ghia (2.2L Subaru Conversion)
72 Deluxe Transporter
Huntington WV
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tallman206 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2006 Posts: 316 Location: St.Petersburg Florida USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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Been there, done that, I feel your pain, brother.
When I first re-installed my engine, I reversed the Pertronix wires on the coil, but hooked up the #15 wire to the correct location, thereby effectively reverse wiring the Pertronix as you had done. Reverse wirirng WILL blow the Pertronix. Second Pertronix was installed and wired correctly and has worked properly ever since. Still, with its faults, I think Pertronix is a much better solution than points, as they don't wear and cause timing/dwell changes. |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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pertronix will also burn out if you leave the ignition on for too long with out the engine running, They are touchy, but running points in the 21st century is kinda silly in anything that isn't Bloomington gold material. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76940 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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jeromevw312 wrote: |
but running points in the 21st century is kinda silly in anything that isn't Bloomington gold material. |
Why is it silly?
476,000 trouble free miles with points. No problems turning 7600rpm and making 12 second passes. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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uberautowerks Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2005 Posts: 1600 Location: Longmont Co
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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Is it really a "Fault" if you hook it up backwards and it blows?
Seems kinda like putting gas in a diesel. It's a stupid, expensive mistake. But not a fault of the design. _________________ --- The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair.
- Douglas Adams -
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'74 Thing (White)
'71 Single cab (White too)
'70 Weekender (White three)
'05 Evolution VIII (White also!!!)
'68 F-250 (White over black) |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Glenn wrote: |
jeromevw312 wrote: |
but running points in the 21st century is kinda silly in anything that isn't Bloomington gold material. |
Why is it silly?
476,000 trouble free miles with points. No problems turning 7600rpm and making 12 second passes. |
Strongly agree with Glen. Correctly installed points are virtually trouble free, and in the rare case something does go wrong you can usually figure out a way to limp home. Periodic point replacement also encourages one to lube the various parts of the distributor from time to time. I see a lot of electronic distributors (both on VW and other makes) that have seized vacuum and centrifugal advances and run like crap because people assume the entire distributor is maintenance free.
When installing an electronic module. It only makes sense to make it hard to install the wires incorrectly. The use of different styles or sizes of wire terminals on each of the wires is only logical. Cutting the wires to a length where they most obviously reach to their correct connection helps as well. |
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jeromevw312 Samba Member
Joined: January 11, 2006 Posts: 236 Location: belmar, nj
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:10 am Post subject: |
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Every air cooled vw i have had i swapped out the points for a pertronix and the car instantly ran smoother, stronger, and got better gas millage. granted, when i was 17 and self taught it took one less variable for me to get it in tune. My grandfather had the same argument that points could always get adjusted and get you home, while electronics fail and leave you stranded. Points worked for millions of cars for millions of miles, I just enjoy taking advantage of modern technology in my old cars.
In my humble opinion, still running points is like still running bias ply tires. |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76940 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:27 am Post subject: |
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jeromevw312 wrote: |
I just enjoy taking advantage of modern technology in my old cars. |
So why not get rid of the distributor and go crankfire?
Oh and ditch the carb and go EFI.
If you want to discuss the perceived advantage, please use the existing topic.: Pertronix vs Points _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Worknclassbug Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2006 Posts: 266
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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uberautowerks wrote: |
Is it really a "Fault" if you hook it up backwards and it blows?
Seems kinda like putting gas in a diesel. It's a stupid, expensive mistake. But not a fault of the design. |
I didn't say it was the smartest thing I had ever done. I appreciate a good public brow beating as much as the next guy but I would have to agree it was a stupid mistake. I had taken pictures of the wiring before I removed the engine but when I replaced the coil I had it rotated 180 degrees hence the wrong placement of the positive wire from the car wiring harness. I would chalk it up to being in a hurry.
As far as the design goes, I'm an electronic engineer and when I come up with a design I do my best to make it "fool proof". It's not that hard to place a device into the design to prevent failure caused by simple mistakes on the part of the user such as polarity reversal. They make diodes every day but they do cost money.
As far as the points VS electronic argument goes, this car will be driven by my wife sometimes and she doesn't know how to open the hood let alone diagnose engine trouble so I wanted some inexpensive reliability. I like the points myself. A well adjusted and clean set of points will work great in my experience.
I just wanted confirmation that being "stupid" and connecting the module incorrectly would in fact destroy it and Tallman206 did that for me. Thanks. _________________ 73 Thing
71 Karmann Ghia (2.2L Subaru Conversion)
72 Deluxe Transporter
Huntington WV
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Semper_Dad Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 3510 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:22 am Post subject: |
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As the old adage says "It's good to learn from your own mistakes, even better and cheaper to learn from someone else". Thanks for sharing.
I worry about cooking my points when I leave my ignition on for long periods of time without the engine running. Hasn't happened so far but there's no reason why it can't happen. Wish there was an accessory position on the ignition switch.
The argument between points verses electronic is a long and sensitive issue. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Since I don't believe this was the point of your thread, I won't address it further. Thanks again. _________________ Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
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Worknclassbug Samba Member
Joined: February 05, 2006 Posts: 266
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Semper_Dad wrote: |
As the old adage says "It's good to learn from your own mistakes, even better and cheaper to learn from someone else". Thanks for sharing.
I worry about cooking my points when I leave my ignition on for long periods of time without the engine running. Hasn't happened so far but there's no reason why it can't happen. Wish there was an accessory position on the ignition switch.
The argument between points verses electronic is a long and sensitive issue. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Since I don't believe this was the point of your thread, I won't address it further. Thanks again. |
Ha ha. I like that saying. I did learn an expensive lesson. It's probably a sign that I should leave a good German design alone though. As far as an accessory position on the keyswitch I haven't really thought about it since the only accessory I really have is the radio and it's wired hot all of the time for some reason so no need for the key to use my one accessory. _________________ 73 Thing
71 Karmann Ghia (2.2L Subaru Conversion)
72 Deluxe Transporter
Huntington WV
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doublecanister Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 1184 Location: Richmond, Va
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:47 am Post subject: pertronix |
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hey WorkingClassbug,
you've steped into a 'touchy subject" here.
My 2 cents,
On my 66' Mustang, the pertronix II system worked fine for about 1 year, then I fried it by leaving the key on doing some interrior re-wiring.
Totally my fault, but I was a bit miffed, that's why I bought the ignitor II
it was "SUPPOSED" to have a built in kill switch for key on situations, so much for that.
I had no idea (that leaving the key on) touched so many different electrical devices, (starter solinoid, coil, voltage regulator, the Ignitor II and a few other wires and things that got rather hot from doing that).
Lesson learned.
The stang hasnt run with the same pep since, I put it back to points and havent changed it yet, all my FORD buddies swear by Mallory Ignition sytems there.
I too, would like to do reinstall a pertronix agian on the Stang and possibly the THING, but as some of the guys stated, these Vw's run real good on points, not sure how much "Go" you'd gain on the Vw engine, but
it made my 289 scratch 2nd gear with an automatic in the Mustang, wont do it on points, even after mucking with the timing.
Some guys have had them for 10 years with no trouble, but spare point's are way cheaper than a spare pertronix module.
Personally, I was satisfied with the 'hidden look' and the performance, but it's short life for what ever reason, tainted the sweetnesss a bit.
Right now, I'm on the fence on the VW and pertronix, but I did enjoy
the "GO" in the Mustang!
For what it's worth!
T. _________________ ****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8 |
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uberautowerks Samba Member
Joined: October 17, 2005 Posts: 1600 Location: Longmont Co
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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To Worknclassbug ... "stupid" wasn't my best choice of words at the moment. Sorry.
The post was referring more to Tallman's comment about "Faults".
I too burned up my first electronic ignition unit by hooking it up backwards.
For what it's worth.... I use the electronic modules because they are water proof. Period.
The same reason I use the Type 3 "Boots" at the spark plugs and grease w zipties on the plug wire boots. _________________ --- The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair.
- Douglas Adams -
---
'74 Thing (White)
'71 Single cab (White too)
'70 Weekender (White three)
'05 Evolution VIII (White also!!!)
'68 F-250 (White over black) |
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Scorcho Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2012 Posts: 386 Location: Chicago, IL
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Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: I think I cooked my Pertronix... |
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I accidentally think I left my ignition switch to on with a pertronix . However, I was able to start it up and drive back home with no problems.
If I had indeed left my ignition switch on and the electric points would have burned up, would I have been able to drive t and start it just fine multiple times? |
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doublecanister Samba Member
Joined: September 23, 2008 Posts: 1184 Location: Richmond, Va
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Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:26 am Post subject: Re: I think I cooked my Pertronix... |
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Scorcho wrote: |
I accidentally think I left my ignition switch to on with a pertronix . However, I was able to start it up and drive back home with no problems.
If I had indeed left my ignition switch on and the electric points would have burned up, would I have been able to drive t and start it just fine multiple times? |
Good question Scorcho;
I know with the pertronix, it was a slow death [due to my limited use] but after I left mine "on" for hours, it did restart but I could probably count it on 1 hand how long it worked till it finally failed.
The giveaway on the failure was "hard to start" or just "a no start situation".
I had actually driven the Stang to a car show and after multiple attempts to restart it, I did and I got home and that was the last time I think it ran.
Points; I've never done a "long time-key on there" but if they were "open" you'd just get the coil hot, if they were slightly open it could cause an arc/burn. I'm Not 100% on that, but I've seen folks do it for 15-20min before with no problems.
As far as your "long time" key on situation with the Pertronix;
just pay attention to it, if the pertronix got damaged, hard starts/no starts all of a sudden to intermittent or a no-start would be the only known giveaway that I know of.
I trouble shot my failure with a nice fellow named Carl Dudash from Retro Rockets, he was a big help for me at the time to determine I did have a true failure/cooked ignitor and not a hundred other possibilities and after 2years of 'putting it off" I bought a replacement ignitor 2.
At the time I had a heck of a time finding ANYONE with any knowledge of how to wire these things for true 12v's, in my case the prev mechanic I got to help used my pink 3.5v points wire for the pertronix power source, it ran fine it just didn't live long.
On the 2nd install I went with their 12v relay and used the pink 3.5v wire for a relay trigger, with 12v straight from the battery.
Let's hope for the best and to be safe, throw a set of points in the glove box!
Or
if money is NO issue, throw a spare pertronix in the glove box! LOL
All arguments aside, if you know how to swap back n forth between pertronix and points or whatever, with a THING, spare parts are not a bad idea to carry, for roadside repairs, I hate being broke down, but it happens...
T _________________ ****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8 |
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