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The right way to lower or raise the rear of an air-cooled VW
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
One would think that all of us VW guys would stick together. One would think. Good luck with your rides though Wink


What makes you think we don't stick together. We do (for the most part). Would NOT telling you the truth be a better thing? At least you're being told what those plate are NOT doing to hopefully save you some headaches later on.

Present the springplates for what they are. Sorry I dont' want you misleading people by making them think that it will improve the ride the same way drop spindles will. They will not. All it does is relocate the bumpstop, but nothing else changes. So if you would have presented them as a springplate the drops the snubber to help give it a better ride from reducing the shock of hitting the stop, then I would have kept my mouth shut.

But trying to say they do the same thing as a drop spindle is misleading to the general public. Sorry to call you on it, but I guess it is what it is.

Try not to hate me. Again, great craftsmanship, just a misunderstanding of what was going on with them. I just try to help believe it or not.
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugninva wrote:
nah, what they do is, they don't change the toe nor camber....


WRONG. They do not affect the camber a bit. The camber is caused by the pivot at the trans.


buginva wrote:
you are not taking into account the arc that the suspension makes as it travels...


Still wrong. The shape of the springplate doesn't change the arc of the suspension travel. Again, you are still pivoting off the trans, that is the arc that causes camber on a lowered VW.



buginva wrote:

just because you have already made up your mind, that doesn't mean you are correct.... Wink


Yea...... but I am correct. And you are wrong.
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bugninva
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eaallred wrote:
bugninva wrote:
nah, what they do is, they don't change the toe nor camber....


WRONG. They do not affect the camber a bit. The camber is caused by the pivot at the trans.

since that quote was in response to dropped spindles, not the springplates, I gotta ask, WTF does your reply have to do with anything, other than your hatred for me calling you on your BS? your desparate grasping at straws so you can scream that I'm wrong, is frickin hilarious!!!

Eaallred wrote:
Still wrong. The shape of the springplate doesn't change the arc of the suspension travel. Again, you are still pivoting off the trans, that is the arc that causes camber on a lowered VW.

the springplate causes the fore and aft arc, the torsion bar is the "pivot" that controls that arc, and *that* is what causes the poorer ride... (I have to wonder if you've ever seen a lowered vw's suspension move... I'm thinking you have not)... camber is a separate issue, don't try to muddy the water just because you can't swim Wink(hint: thats the second time you are replying out of context. this reply you made was on my reply to you about "ride quality", and NOTHING to do with camber, so why you are arguing camber on a statment I made about ride quality, is nothing more than your desparation showing... and it's funny as hell Laughing ) like I said, put that arc on your drawing or study up on how suspensions work, then come back with salt and pepper...


Eaallred wrote:

Yea...... but I am correct. And you are wrong.

as you always say, you are correct... even when you are wrong... Wink
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[email protected] wrote:
With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone?


GEX has. Just sayin


Last edited by bugninva on Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:39 pm; edited 2 times in total
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I havent thought it all the way through but i think they look like a pretty good idea. Its seems obvious to me what is going on is that the geometry has changed.. and the drawing that eaallred presented is not correct as i see it .. There is a zig zag in the plate but the location of the hub end has changed.. its not in the same stock location like that drawing shows. its either above or below the stock location and this is what gives you the ability to lower or raise your hub without having to change the torsion adjustment from stock...and stock ride quality. I might try some to get a another 3 ' of height on my baja.
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While you guys are at it do you want to address the "bump steer kit" that keeps the tie rods from hitting the gas tank but causes HORRIBLE BUMP STEER.
Now that is irony, nameing something the opposite of what it does!
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtkeeper wrote:
I havent thought it all the way through but i think they look like a pretty good idea. Its seems obvious to me what is going on is that the geometry has changed.. and the drawing that eaallred presented is not correct as i see it .. There is a zig zag in the plate but the location of the hub end has changed.. its not in the same stock location like that drawing shows. its either above or below the stock location and this is what gives you the ability to lower or raise your hub without having to change the torsion adjustment from stock...and stock ride quality. I might try some to get a another 3 ' of height on my baja.


You understand what is going on sir. Take a plate. Drop or raise the axle location to where you want it. Vertical only. Then make a plate that operates in the factory given stopper range. Wha laa! By the way it works great!
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[email protected]
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

modok wrote:
While you guys are at it do you want to address the "bump steer kit" that keeps the tie rods from hitting the gas tank but causes HORRIBLE BUMP STEER.
Now that is irony, nameing something the opposite of what it does!


Sure why not? I am always up for improving my ride Wink
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine bought that bump steer kit and I'm watching him jack up the car and I can see the wheel turn like 15 degrees as it goes up. Jeez. Since he didn't really understand bump steer he didn't notice. I didn't have the heart to tell him..........
"clears the gas tank pretty good now huh."



The ancient performance setup for swingaxle is about 2" drop, limit down travel a bit(like 1 inch depending), re-set toe to be correct at ride height(and never go to toe in).

If you had an adjsutable height kit and instructions that made that EASY, it would be a pretty good product for us performance guys.
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bugninva wrote:
Eaallred wrote:
bugninva wrote:
nah, what they do is, they don't change the toe nor camber....


WRONG. They do not affect the camber a bit. The camber is caused by the pivot at the trans.

since that quote was in response to dropped spindles, not the springplates, I gotta ask, WTF does your reply have to do with anything, other than your hatred for me calling you on your BS? your desparate grasping at straws so you can scream that I'm wrong, is frickin hilarious!!!

Eaallred wrote:
Still wrong. The shape of the springplate doesn't change the arc of the suspension travel. Again, you are still pivoting off the trans, that is the arc that causes camber on a lowered VW.

the springplate causes the fore and aft arc, the torsion bar is the "pivot" that controls that arc, and *that* is what causes the poorer ride... (I have to wonder if you've ever seen a lowered vw's suspension move... I'm thinking you have not)... camber is a separate issue, don't try to muddy the water just because you can't swim Wink(hint: thats the second time you are replying out of context. this reply you made was on my reply to you about "ride quality", and NOTHING to do with camber, so why you are arguing camber on a statment I made about ride quality, is nothing more than your desparation showing... and it's funny as hell Laughing ) like I said, put that arc on your drawing or study up on how suspensions work, then come back with salt and pepper...


Eaallred wrote:

Yea...... but I am correct. And you are wrong.

as you always say, you are correct... even when you are wrong... Wink


Sorry pal, you're still wrong.

Lowered the same height, one with stock plates, one with these plates. guess what? The angle from the center pivot of the torsion housing to the center of the axle is the SAME ANGLE. The arc has not changed like you think it has.

Ignorance is bliss, have fun with that. And have fun stalking me for another 10 years. I'm sure it's been, and will continue to be time well spent.
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dalland
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well with these plates you can do one nice thing that is not possible with notching the oem plates.

You can have a lower ride and a bit harder suspension.
Because when you mount it, you could have it under force when resting on the lower stopper, and you still have a nice hight!

This does the same thing as all newer cars:
Lower and stiffer. Wink

(Norwegian writing fancy english) Embarassed
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hoghead
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

take a look at his website and note the adjustable torsion plates and rear adjustable camber unit under development

I also see he is a mechanical engineer.
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dalland wrote:
Well with these plates you can do one nice thing that is not possible with notching the oem plates.

You can have a lower ride and a bit harder suspension.
Because when you mount it, you could have it under force when resting on the lower stopper, and you still have a nice hight!

This does the same thing as all newer cars:
Lower and stiffer. Wink

(Norwegian writing fancy english) Embarassed


A bigger torsion bar gives you a firmer suspension WITHOUT banging against the lower suspension stop. No newer car (or any car I know of) has the car bound against the lower suspension stop to firm the suspension.

And I ain't even an engineer.

If anyone still doesn't get how this springplate does not change the rear suspension geometry compared to a stock plate other than lowering the snubber and that it does NOTHING like a drop spindle does for the front end, I can do another "awesome" Microsoft Paint rendering.

I'd still like to know from buginva (aka 10 year no-name stalker) HOW this does anything to the camber of the rear wheel since he quote-whored enough to show how convinced he is that it does that.

Again, I will say it again. The craftsmanship is great, and what I haven't said is that he has a lot of ambition. I hope Atom isn't pissed at me too much (I do understand if he is a certain amount though)

And buginva, I suggest you find a new hobby for the next 10 years, because now whenever you stick you nose into something just for the reason of spite toward me, i'm going to pin you down on it. I don't seek you out, but you sure seem to with me. And that's fine if you want to do that, but just be aware that the game has changed at this point.
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Work got delayed for a bit this morning, so I whipped up another masterpiece (feel free to print it out and stick it on the fridge).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



This is why it does not do anything like a "drop spindle" on the rear, why it does nothing to the camber like buginva (aka creepy-stalker-guy) insisted a couple times, and how it does NOTHING to change the rear suspension geometry.

All it can possibly do is lower the suspension snubber so you don't bottom out on that when you go really low (which can improve ride quality in that regard). And I never argued that. But as you can tell by the high quality rendering i've provided (possibly my lifes masterpiece, i'll have to ask around), it does not do ANYTHING to change rear suspension geometry, at all, and aside from moving the suspension stop, ride quality will remain exactly the same.
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dirtkeeper
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont know about the camber effects. but i do know that that drawing eric is again wrong. Point A to point B DOES change, not the distance but the reference angle. The hub would be located higher or lower.. Point A of the modified arm should be down on that lower horizontal line you have in the first pic. ( i think thats the direction it would move to raise the car )
In your drawing of the front spindles and arms if you described that "box" that is the front arms and spindles as being the" spring plate" the hub has moved in exactly the same way as the red dot your describing as the spindle. I need a more accurate drawing before i can post it on my fridge.
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JasonBaker
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay just send me a prototype and I'll report back in a fews days and settle this dispute.
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirtkeeper wrote:
I dont know about the camber effects. but i do know that that drawing eric is again wrong. Point A to point B DOES change, not the distance but the reference angle. The hub would be located higher or lower.. Point A of the modified arm should be down on that lower horizontal line you have in the first pic. ( i think thats the direction it would move to raise the car )
In your drawing of the front spindles and arms if you described that "box" that is the front arms and spindles as being the" spring plate" the hub has moved in exactly the same way as the red dot your describing as the spindle. I need a more accurate drawing before i can post it on my fridge.


Same car, lowered the same amount, aligned the same (via the slotted adjustable holes in the springplate), A to B does not change between the two spring plates.

The angle does NOT change if the car is lowered the same amount with either springplate.

I am G-D speechless at this point. Holey $hit.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric, your drawing is wrong. The spring plate doesn't "Z", it is a "V". For a given angle at the torsion and indexed angle at the spring plate, the "V" spring plate causes the car to sit lower; so for a fixed hard-stop at the torsion housing, the "V" spring plate will allow the car to sit lower than with a stock spring plate sitting on the hard-stop. Finally, if this "V" spring plate is longer than stock (from torsion to axle-tube), this would reduce toe-in on an extremely lowered car (again, that is "if" it is longer).
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66brm wrote:
Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Allred's picture a few posts above doesn't make this clear, not much will. Drop spindles work because the wheel's position in it's arc of travel has not changed. At rest, the wheel is at the furthest point away from the pivot (torsion bar). With either suspension compression or unloading, the wheel will move forward (towards the beam) in it's arc of travel, just like stock. You could have a 32-inch drop spindle, a 10-inch drop spindle, or the normal 2-inch drop spindle. All would produce the same arc of wheel travel. That's the key. The pattern that the wheel travels from rest, either compression or unloading.

The rear is different. There's only one torsion bar (pivot point), instead of two. I'm not going to talk about camber or toe, because it's obvious that nothing will help camber, and yes, the plates probably correct for toe, like folks have been doing for awhile. When the car is at stock height, the rear operates similar to the front. At rest, the wheel is at it's furthest point from the pivot (torsion bar). When the suspension articulates, either compression or unloading, the wheel will move forward, towards the pivot. When the rear is lowered, either by changing the notches, drop extensions, these plates, notching, etc., you are now presetting the wheel forward in it's arc of travel. When the suspension compresses, the wheel moves towards the pivot, like stock. The problem is when the suspension unloads. The wheel WILL move BACK before it moves forward again. This is physics. The shape of the plate does NOT matter in this regard. It can be any shape you want. What IS a fact is that the wheel will move AWAY from the pivot before it comes forward again. I don't need to see, hold or know the dimensions of the plate in order to know this. I can demonstrate this with a piece of paper.

This will allow one to not have to notch the plates, but you haven't changed the arc of travel of the rear wheel, and THAT is the issue here.
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Steve Arndt
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wasn't there an English company selling z/notched plates a few years ago?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how the diagram should look:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If the amount you can lower the car is limited by the hard-stop at the torsion housing, the "V" spring plate will allow for a lower ride height than stock.
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66brm wrote:
Bodacious wrote:
Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor.

I don't think electrickery works that way


Last edited by Stripped66 on Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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