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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:41 am Post subject: Do I need an electric pump? |
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I am trying to guess if I will need an electric pump (with regulator) for my Avenger project. Here are a couple of pictures of my set up:
The tank is custom. The metal line that comes out from the top is a vent line. it goes over the top of the tank toward the front, does a 360 degree loop, and then exits below the vehicle.
The rubber line is 5/16". There is an aluminum line in the tank that goes to the bottom of the tank. It connects to a barbed fitting, through the rubber line, and into a new 5/16 line that enters the tunnel under the battery (the stock location), is run inside the tunnel and exits in the rear at the stock location.
My concern is whether the stock VW pump will be able to pull fuel up through the top mounted supply line. I probably should have designed a bottom mount supply port, and still could possibly have that done, but it might be the same cost as a pump and regulator.
My wiring harness has a circuit for the electric pump (it would be wired through a safety switch) and I could mount the pump in front of the battery with ease.
So....thoughts? Will a stock pump be able to draw the fuel up the tank and to the motor?
Last edited by jspbtown on Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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66 Shorty Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 916 Location: Rhode Island
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:48 am Post subject: |
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I'm no expert, but, I would think it would have a really tough time pulling it through, especially if it's not primed first. Pumps are better "pushers" than "Pullers"...
I like the looks of the set-up you have there! VERY Nice & clean looking! _________________ ~X-Man~
'60's Spatz Buggy body on '74 Chassis (Budget Build)
'69 Bug (Baja-to-be partial daily)
'10 Silverado (My daily) |
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BL3Manx Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006 Posts: 6767 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:17 am Post subject: |
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That just looks like a scary place for a tank, in front of the front beam. Is there just no way it can be mounted say over the trans? |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Its a tough to see in this picture but the top of the tranny is right in line with where the body comes down. No room there at all. Any space you think of over the tranny is actually inside the car. I was not going to place it there.
The original design had the tank sitting on top (more or less) of the beam, very similiar to a Buggy. With the firewall mounted pedals placing it there was not an option. |
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Rohrheim Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2010 Posts: 64 Location: NJ
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Install your filter and pump as close to the cell as possible. Electric pumps are designed to be pushers. Nice job under the hood |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:58 am Post subject: |
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My thought was to fabricate a mounting plate that will attach right to the front of the battery holder. Its tough to see but there are 2 horizontal 1" square tubes about 4" apart from eachother. The fuel line is attached to the upper one in the second picture. |
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LouisB Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2004 Posts: 1027 Location: Tallahassee, FL
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:14 am Post subject: |
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What about an in tank electric pump? You would have to fab up a hanger and figure out a regulator.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AEI-11140/
--louis _________________ Louis Brooks
'67 Manx II
Old people at weddings always poke me and say "Your next." So, I started doing the same to them at funerals. |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Definitely not going to cut into that tank. |
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manxdavid Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2003 Posts: 1841 Location: David Jones, Anglesey, North Wales, UK. Manxclub #678.
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
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Stock pump should be fine. Once the fuel's thru to it it will virtually syphon out of the tank, the height of the outlet will not be detrimental in any way. |
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retterath Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 661 Location: SW Washington state
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
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You can always fit a check valve into the line near the carb(s)If you have issues with the stock pump draining back. Once the pump is primed, I don't forsee any trouble. |
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dan macmillan Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003 Posts: 3110 Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yes the stock pump will work fine, almost all other manufactures used a mechanical engine mounted pump that took fuel from the top of the tank for years. Most had farther yo go than you do. _________________ Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
Licensed Heavy Duty Equipment Technician
CFC/HCFC/HFC A/C handling and installation license
Alignment specialist
66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
Current projects:
Built for others:69 Manx Clone |
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bim55 Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 438 Location: Dennis Port, MA
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I think this is a good question, and I'm not sure??
While the distance from tank to carb is of some concern, I dont see it as a problem here as noted previously.
I think the difference in elevation is more important, at least to gravity anyway. The typical VW fuel is gravity fed to the pump, and then pushed up to the carb? If the tank is lower in your car, you might not have any gravity assist to the mechanical pump? So, maybe?? _________________ Boston Bob E.
www.bimelliott.com www.deserterownersgroup.org |
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BL3Manx Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006 Posts: 6767 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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jspbtown wrote: |
Its a tough to see in this picture but the top of the tranny is right in line with where the body comes down. No room there at all. Any space you think of over the tranny is actually inside the car. I was not going to place it there. |
That's a professionally made, properly vented fuel cell. As long as it was securely mounted on a steel structure supported from the frame, I wouldn't hesitate a second to put it inside the car vs. where its very likely to rupture/next to the battery in even the most moderate front end collision. |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
That's a professionally made, properly vented fuel cell. As long as it was securely mounted on a steel structure supported from the frame, I wouldn't hesitate a second to put it inside the car |
Sorry...I am not going to drag a fuel filler from a gas pump into the back seat area of a closed cockpit car. Honestly...that makes about as little sense to me as anything I have heard. |
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4927 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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The Bradley GT2 has the same setup with a sheetmetal fuel tank in the nose ahead of the beam. I don't see this as being any less safe than having a std Beetle tank above your feet in a buggy & getting into an impact.
If jspbtown wants to appease the crowd here, he can opt to move the battery to the rear of the car so as to remove the 'spark feature'...
And just avoid crashing...
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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bnc
Avoid crashing.....yes!
I was thinking the same thing. Most buggies have them hanging right out front...and they aren't as well made as this tank.
As a matetr of fact my Speedster had the battery up front with the tank as well:
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4927 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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I've been meaning to ask: is the back glass a '65-'66 Mustang fastback item?
That's my first guess...
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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BL3Manx Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2006 Posts: 6767 Location: Northern California
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Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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didget69 wrote: |
The Bradley GT2 has the same setup with a sheetmetal fuel tank in the nose ahead of the beam. I don't see this as being any less safe than having a std Beetle tank above your feet in a buggy & getting into an impact. |
The difference is that many, many VWs have been in collisions that smash everything ahead of the front beam, but the tank(which is above and behind the beam) didn't rupture.
Fuel cells are amazing but put one directly between a hammer and an anvil and its going to fail. Even in a low speed crash, that beam will keep moving forward until it hits something solid. Its going right through that aluminum fuel cell.
jspbtown wrote: |
Sorry...I am not going to drag a fuel filler from a gas pump into the back seat area of a closed cockpit car. Honestly...that makes about as little sense to me as anything I have heard. |
You're absolutely right, that's why they sell fuel filler tube/hose and body mounted filler caps. This guy seems to have worked out the technical challenges of locating his fuel tank over his trans, inside the body, below the back window with an external filler.
Its totally your choice, but in even a minor (10-15 mph?) front end collision, everything ahead of the front beam will likely be destroyed. Any risks related to locating that high quality fuel cell inside the cockpit are dwarfed by your use of it as an energy absorbing front bumper. |
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jspbtown Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 5156
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:15 am Post subject: |
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bnc,
yes...Mustang fastback rear glass, Corvair front.
BL3Manx,
I had a Sterling. The fuel tank was designed to sit in the back, basically over the tranny like you suggested. It was totally removed from the passenger compartment by the rear bulkhead. Of course it just sat on a couple of brackets bolted through the fiberglass. I could see it easily rupturing in a rear end collision and dripping gas all over a hot exhaust pipe on the motor.
In order to mount it in the back I would litterally have to create a fiberglass wall behind the seats & cut a hole for a large piece of glass so I could see out the rear window. Then of course the tank would be too tall and I wouldn't be able to see out the rear window. |
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