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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:17 am    Post subject: All about dealer installed a/c in a 61-67 beetle Reply with quote

does anyone here have a beetle with dealer installed A/C that theyve converted from R12 to R134a?
Id like to get the system in my 67 beetle running again and R12 is impossible to find, as well as getting new lines for R-12 is unobtanium.

what all needs to be changed?
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're in California? Contact Ice AC in San Diego. First of all: R-12 is available and legal, one just needs a 609 license to purchase it. The oils used are not compatible.

Second, any decent auto air conditioning shop can readily make up hoses/manifolds.

Third, any old compressor is terribly inefficient compared to today's units.

I'd recommend a smaller, more efficient modern compressor, so see Ice AC. Or Gilmore's if you like Florida better.
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68IHscout
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if u can't afford all that ,I'm sure they sell. Kits to change it over , the kit is the cheapest to try first.
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dcnjoe60
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: converting dealer installed a/c to r134a Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:
does anyone here have a beetle with dealer installed A/C that theyve converted from R12 to R134a?
Id like to get the system in my 67 beetle running again and R12 is impossible to find, as well as getting new lines for R-12 is unobtanium.

what all needs to be changed?


R12 is available through a number of sources, even amazon.com. However, if you need to replace the lines, too. Then you might as well convert the whole system. Most auto a/c shops can do that.
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Gary
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: converting dealer installed a/c to r134a Reply with quote

dcnjoe60 wrote:
guteandtite wrote:
does anyone here have a beetle with dealer installed A/C that theyve converted from R12 to R134a?
Id like to get the system in my 67 beetle running again and R12 is impossible to find, as well as getting new lines for R-12 is unobtanium.

what all needs to be changed?


R12 is available through a number of sources, even amazon.com.


Oh really? You'd better rethink that one.

http://www.dnd-automotive.com/ac/r12.htm
http://www.ehow.com/facts_7465742_federal-law-r_12-refrigerant.html
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/608/608fact.html

IIRC, the fine for an unlicensed individual possessing R-12 is $10,000 per can.
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68IHscout
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R12 is illegal in the US ,peopele have gotten busted for contraband bringing r12 across the border from mexico.
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Gary
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

68IHscout wrote:
R12 is illegal in the US ,peopele have gotten busted for contraband bringing r12 across the border from mexico.


Wrong. It is illegal to import into the US.
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Paul Windisch
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It isn't illegal, it's just harder to come by and more expensive. By the way, R-12 is a much more efficient refrigerant than 134, so given the choice, stick with R-12.
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candymustang65
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not Me I never break the law ! Twisted Evil
Ehh never done a R-134 Bugg compressor but done a lott of conversion's .
At one time many year's ago even had a sett of gauges and a vaccum pump .
Wich bring's us too the kitt they sell at Napa .
Some Kitt's have a gauge some dont .
Your's is a stock OEM A.C. kind of old more than likely has a leak but often will last a season provided it's a very slow leak .
The R-134 kitt comes with leak detector die and a coupla can's .
What happen's most often with chargeing the system by novice mechanic's with one of these kitts is no gauges and even with the gauge type kitt they over pressurize the system causeing an existing leak to leak worse or causeing a leak .
This is due to failure of how the can and punture apparatus work's .
You install the can in the hose assembly .
Then turn the hand valve in until the spike punctures the can .
Note : Most people think that once the can is puntured your chargeing the system .
You are in fact not chargeing nothin much is comming out of the can due to the spike is blocking the hole .
So they start cranking the hand valve back out .
Wooosh the can empty's itself all at once over pressureizeing the system and causes a leak .
The idea is to charge a system slowly as in ever so slowly so as not to Over Pressurize the system .
Tipp : crank hand valve back out slowly feeling the can if you can feel it moveing turn it back in .
Kitt come's with complete instruction's .
Some have a gauge < tell's you when your over pressurizeing the system .
Realize you have a high side < Bigg line and a low side High pressure side Smaller diameter line .
R- 12 will burn you as well as R-134 .
can suffer serious injury .
Read the instruction's in the Kitt .
Over pressureizeing can cause serious injuries .
So understand it .
Leak's are often at connection's and O-ring's are often the source of leak's .
Back up wrench and tubeing wrenches are required there soft aluminum line .
Removeing a A.C. line on a pressurized system can cause serious injury .
Might pay to have a Licensed tech Vaccum pump the system .
But on old system's that your sure are vacant of freon ?
It's sworth it to just charge the system with a R-134 kitt and get some Dye in it see where it leak's ?
Sean
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Gary
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ Rolling Eyes

Meaningless drivel aside, the proper course of action is to seek the services of a licensed professional.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ya at $85.00 an hour !
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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the original system sucks. as already mentioned, the original compressor is very inefficient. you want a modern rotary compressor. also, to properly convert a system from r12 to r134, you need to replace all the barrier hoses, all the seals, and you need a larger sized condenser.

once you've bought all of that, you'll find it much cheaper to just buy a complete r134 system like the one gilmore offers.

if all you do is replace the fittings and fill with r134, as some of those cheap $25 auto-parts store kits would have you believe, you'll end up with system that leaks like a sieve and even when fully charged, will give very poor cooling results.


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corblimey79
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Converting a system is easy, but if you dont want to change anything on the car you can now get a R12 alternative! example: Freeze 12

http://www.freeze12.com/

You need a special hose to charge your vehicle unless you use a can tapping hose! Something to think about. We sell this at NAPA.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and its cheap unlike R12 which runs over $40 a can!!! this stuff sells for around $8 $-$12 if i remember right! Anyone can buy this stuff too!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

corblimey79 wrote:
you can now get a R12 alternative! example: Freeze 12

http://www.freeze12.com/

lol. do a google search and see some of the feedback and results people are having with that product. it's mostly negative.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesnt get as cold as R12 but neither does R134a after a conversion, we have alot of customers that use this mostly farmers, and they tend to complain alot! lol.....sorry to any farmers reading this. ) and i've never heard a complaint. I dont know first hand how well it works, just suggesting a cheaper way of adding freon without changing anything. Wouldn't hurt to try it!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

68IHscout wrote:
R12 is illegal in the US ,peopele have gotten busted for contraband bringing r12 across the border from mexico.


R12 is not illegal in the United States, it is available from a number of sources. Of course transporting various substance across the border may be illegal, especially chemicals. You cannot bring R12 into the country without a permit, but that is the same with sulfuric acid and any number of things, including cigars from Cuba.
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.

IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.

Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?
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PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse"
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corblimey79
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 words.........SWAMP COOLER!!! Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:
Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.

IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.

Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?


How difficult would it be for you to either use a copy of the Yellow Pages or http://www.yellowpages.com and find a local licensed A/C shop who can answer these questions?
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