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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

corblimey79 wrote:
It doesnt get as cold as R12 but neither does R134a after a conversion,

wrong. r134 gets just as cold after a conversion... provided you've changed your condenser to a larger one. r134 needs a larger condenser than r12, as i stated already. if you don't change your condenser for a larger one, you didn't do a proper conversion, and yes, you'll have piss poor performance.

corblimey79 wrote:
Wouldn't hurt to try it!

aside from the time you've wasted and the money you've flushed down the toilet, no, trying that gimmick product won't hurt anything. are you a freeze 12 salesman??? Rolling Eyes
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GüteAndTite
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

corblimey79 wrote:
2 words.........SWAMP COOLER!!! Wink
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1 word CONVERTIBLE- I cant put a swamp cooler on a convertible. My 67 convertible has factory a/c and I want it to work. do you know the answers to my questions? please help if you do. thanks
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary wrote:
guteandtite wrote:
Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.

IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.

Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?


How difficult would it be for you to either use a copy of the Yellow Pages or http://www.yellowpages.com and find a local licensed A/C shop who can answer these questions?


well the couple of shops I called havent ever delt with an aircooled vw with a/c. i was hoping that theres someone on the samba in the vw community whos been through this who could give me some pointers
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PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse"
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

your on the right track -- give the thread time - more will come in !
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, so again:

IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o-rings so the system doesnt leak. CAN new R12 lines be made? I know they are different than r134.

IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.

Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?
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PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse"
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heres the style of original unit i have:
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torsionbar
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:

IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o-rings so the system doesnt leak. CAN new R12 lines be made? I know they are different than r134.

you're asking us if your local a/c shop can make you some new hoses? why don't you call your a/c shop and ask them?

guteandtite wrote:

Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?

yes you can. the reason that r134 systems need all new hoses is not for chemical compatibility. it's because the r12 hoses are porous and allow the gas to escape. r134 hoses are not. you can use r12 freon in r134 hoses without issue.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I manage a NAPA so i do know a bit about what im suggesting so yeah i guess i am a freeze 12 salesman but im not trying to sell to him, im merely trying to help by offering an alternative which you dont know for sure sucks like you said. I do however KNOW that this stuff does work. Still cheaper for lets say 3 cans of freeze 12 to try than all the stuff required for a GOOD CONVERSION. cheap A/C would be all i want! Smile but if he doesnt want to try it, fine by me! theres no need to be rude. Just trying to help.
Hope you get your A/C concern corrected!
Dan

P.S i was teasing about the swamp cooler Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want a swamp cooler !
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerryMCarter1 wrote:
I want a swamp cooler !

Me too!!
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an ex-refrigeration mechanic and son of someone who was one for nearly 30 years I gotta say it's painful reading some of the crap in this thread a couple of people have come out with.

but anyway firstly is your system still sealed? all the pipework connected?
Nearly every dealerfitted A/C I see has the discharge and suction lines either not connected to the compressor or just loosely done up cos the compressor has been removed that many times to work on or remove the engine.
Refrigeration oil is hygroscopic so left open for too long attracts moisture and moisture in a refrigeration system causes big problems, the drier can only handle so much and if unused for years the rust and shit build up just cloggs everything.

Even if you get it evacuated, and charged up and it holds it don't expect miracles, the evaps and condensers were undersized to start with, the fans were inadequate and the evap fan and core is probably plugged up with 45 years of dirt and crap.

Is your's the system with the 2 condensers either side of the gearbox?
What sort of shape are they in?
Highly susceptible to damage and dirt down there, the return bends on the sides would easily pierce or squash up from a rock thrown up.

guteandtite wrote:
Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.

hoses of that age need replacing regardless, you would be pissing money up the wall to leave them.
Even if they did hold the charge they would be on borrowed time.


IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing?

The stock TX valve will work fine if it's ok, wouldnt be a bad idea to replace it though.

I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine.

So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.

Parallel flow condensers are more efficient but the serpentine ones still work fine, as long as they are sized for the job.
That's all I run in mine, with an ambient temp of 100f my air off temp is getting down to 40f.
It's just like using disc brakes or drums, drums work fine but discs are just newer technology and more efficient.


Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?

Yes, R12 works fine, it's the oil in the R134a that likes to eat away the rubber of the older hoses, the new hose is compatible with both.
I was going to run mine R12 even though everycomponent and hose is brand new and designed for R134a simply because of how much more efficient R12 is.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel wrote:
As an ex-refrigeration mechanic and son of someone who was one for nearly 30 years I gotta say it's painful reading some of the crap in this thread a couple of people have come out with.

but anyway firstly is your system still sealed? all the pipework connected?
Nearly every dealerfitted A/C I see has the discharge and suction lines either not connected to the compressor or just loosely done up cos the compressor has been removed that many times to work on or remove the engine.
Refrigeration oil is hygroscopic so left open for too long attracts moisture and moisture in a refrigeration system causes big problems, the drier can only handle so much and if unused for years the rust and shit build up just cloggs everything.

Even if you get it evacuated, and charged up and it holds it don't expect miracles, the evaps and condensers were undersized to start with, the fans were inadequate and the evap fan and core is probably plugged up with 45 years of dirt and crap.

Is your's the system with the 2 condensers either side of the gearbox?
What sort of shape are they in?
Highly susceptible to damage and dirt down there, the return bends on the sides would easily pierce or squash up from a rock thrown up.

guteandtite wrote:
Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.

hoses of that age need replacing regardless, you would be pissing money up the wall to leave them.
Even if they did hold the charge they would be on borrowed time.


IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing?

The stock TX valve will work fine if it's ok, wouldnt be a bad idea to replace it though.

I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine.

So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.

Parallel flow condensers are more efficient but the serpentine ones still work fine, as long as they are sized for the job.
That's all I run in mine, with an ambient temp of 100f my air off temp is getting down to 40f.
It's just like using disc brakes or drums, drums work fine but discs are just newer technology and more efficient.


Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12?

Yes, R12 works fine, it's the oil in the R134a that likes to eat away the rubber of the older hoses, the new hose is compatible with both.
I was going to run mine R12 even though everycomponent and hose is brand new and designed for R134a simply because of how much more efficient R12 is.


Awesome, thanks for some good answers, so far this thread has been wading thru a lot of muck.

So I'm definatley replacing my lines and Im going to replace my o rings with blue neoprene o rings. I'm also gonna get a new drier. I'd like to keep the system running on R12. I'd also like to upgrade from the York compressor to a sanden rotary. The system is open so no worries about spilling out r12 right now. Are there sanden rotary compressors designe to work on R12 , OR- can I just buy a sanden rotary compressor made for r134a and be able to run R12 with it?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any new compressor you find thats marked for R12 has been sitting in a box for the last 20 years.
R12 became obsolete to the manufacturers in the early 90s (1994 here in Oz) so all the compressors made since are designed for R134a but they run perfectly fine on R12.

As I said my system is all brand new, my compressor is a brand new genuine Subaru one and I was going to run my system on R12 simply because I have some and it's more efficient.

Only reason I didn't was any problems with the compressor would void my warranty if it came up it was on R12 and the fines here for putting R12 in a new system isn't worth the risk.

By rights any time a system is open the drier should be replaced.
It's been 8 years since I've worked in the industry but I'm sure even back then it was law to replace it here.

You say your system is open?
are the pipes in the engine bay still connected to the compressor?
If they have been left open like I mentioned the oil is hygroscopic and pulls in moisture so any rust or sludge in the metal hardlines can block up the orifaces in the evap, condenser and TX valve.
Not to mention all the dirt and crap that floats around in an old VW engine bay getting in them if they are open.

Anyway don't even entertain the idea of bothering with the old York piston compressor, it would be like buying a brand new showroom car and ripping off the fuel injection to put a carby on.

Shouldnt be too hard to mount a rotary compressor up to the existing mountings.
They are also alot smaller too so make access to plugs and distributor slightly easier.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could still use R12, by why would you? R134A works fine, if properly tune charged to the specific application. I have made numorous conversions for classic car A/C systems. It's a fine line on proper charge for good cooling. I have never had a complaint from the effeciency (or temperature) of older systems converted to R134A. Your VW will love the Sanden compressor. It uses less power to operate, weighs less, and is a better design than that ole piston pumper York. Follow the guidelines of some of the great advice that has been given to you regardng hoses, driers, etc.. the basics and dont look back.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
You could still use R12, by why would you? R134A works fine, if properly tune charged to the specific application. I have made numorous conversions for classic car A/C systems. It's a fine line on proper charge for good cooling. I have never had a complaint from the effeciency (or temperature) of older systems converted to R134A. Your VW will love the Sanden compressor. It uses less power to operate, weighs less, and is a better design than that ole piston pumper York. Follow the guidelines of some of the great advice that has been given to you and dont look back.


Any ideas on compressor choice? I've seen sanden 508 and also 708. There are other off brands as well. I know the outputs are different. Is there a easy way(formula)to determine the output size of a compressor needed for the evaporator I have under the dash? I don't want to be under powered and burn up my engine or be over powered and blow out the a/c lines.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a certified and licensed automotive A/C tech here are some answers.

R-12 hasn't been available in North America legally for over 15 years. The last 20lb can (like you use for your BBQ) I saw for sale was worth $1400 and that was before the ban was implemented and production of R-12 had stopped already. It is now illegal for any shop to recharge a mobile A/C system ie. cars and trucks with R-12

Recharging a system involve more than just screwing a fitting on and filling it. Chances are your hoses all leak, your reciever drier is contaminated to the point where it needs replacing and your compressor if it hasn't been run for a while is probably corroded internally.

So to do a retro-fit that is worth spending your money on you must

A - have the system integrity checked and correct any leaks Hoses , evaporator, condensers etc

B - Replace your receiver/dryer and probably also the compressor. R-134 also uses different fitting to hook up A/C equipment.

C - Evacuate the system and hold it under 29 inches of vacum for at least 30 minutes to boil any moisture out of the system.

D - Inject the correct PAG oil or retro fit oil that will mix with the R-12 and old A/C oil

E - fill the system with the correct WEIGHT of R-134.

As you can see this is hardly a do it DIY project. A/C shops charge $85 an hour because, the machines to evacuate and fill and A/C system are worth a few thousand dollars. the eco-taxes shops pay (at least where I live) are brutal. And the people that usually do it are skilled and knowledgeable and that takes time and training and time and training are money spent.

brad
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sanden SD508 = Wobble plate, 5 pistons, 08 approx cubic inch displacement
Sanden SD708 = Wobble plate, 7 pistons, 08 approx cubic inch displacement

Cant go wrong either way. I have used both. 7 pistons are more effecient as a pump, but have more moving parts so uses slightly more power.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:

B - Replace your receiver/dryer and probably also the compressor. R-134 also uses different fitting to hook up A/C equipment.


I know in a VW install using a universal compressor the wrong service valve isn't a problem cos you just use new beadlock fittings with a service valve already on it like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



But when retrofitting a factory setup where the stock R12 compressor is installed and working fine but the service valves (well atleast the highside one anyway) on the discharge hardline out of the compressor can't be swapped all we used to do was fit these conversion adaptors which screw onto the existing R12 service valve so new gauges fit.

Do you use that sort of thing? or just swap out the compressor and pipework?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel wrote:
slalombuggy wrote:

B - Replace your receiver/dryer and probably also the compressor. R-134 also uses different fitting to hook up A/C equipment.


I know in a VW install using a universal compressor the wrong service valve isn't a problem cos you just use new beadlock fittings with a service valve already on it like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



But when retrofitting a factory setup where the stock R12 compressor is installed and working fine but the service valves (well atleast the highside one anyway) on the discharge hardline out of the compressor can't be swapped all we used to do was fit these conversion adaptors which screw onto the existing R12 service valve so new gauges fit.

Do you use that sort of thing? or just swap out the compressor and pipework?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Well I'm gonna Have new lines done and run R12, but some time down the line I'll have to run R134a, it's inevitable, so I'll probably to the screw on adapters instead of running hoses with them built in that can only charge R134a
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VOLKSWAGNUT Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those pictures in the 2 posts above are not service valves. Those are charging ports or fittings.

Service valves were used on vehicles in the early days of A/C. Plus are still use today on certain industrial applications, including home and stationary units. They have been mainly cut out of automotive use due to leaks.

Service valves have the capability of closing the system to hold the refrigerant charge in the system while the compressor is removed for engine (or compressor) service. These are screw type moveable valves that must be manually turned to close or open and were normally found mounted right on the compressor inlet and outlet.
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