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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the adapter valves are widely used in A/C conversions I've used them about 100 times without a problem. I like to use some red lock tight on the threads and tighten them down carefully. They are also available as 90* fittings if that will make them easier to service.

brad
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I'll add my 2cents.

That is a funky dash unit, it would be great to keep it IF you can.
The older stuff is just that... OLD !!
To make AC that will work and cool you off, you will need some upgrades to your old system.

I don't know what your budget is but if you are going to do this prepare to spend $1500 + or so to do it right.
I would suggest calling Gilmore in Florida and seriously talking to them.
http://www.gilmore-enterprises.net/GH/index.htm
I've talked to them in the past about using older housings and he was open to the idea. We didn't talk $$'s for I'd rather just purchase his new unit and have the designed in benefits as a whole system.

He, in my eyes is the "GO TO" guy for VW AC much as Chuck's is for VW convertibles. They know what they are doing and do it right.

If you don't have money, just wait and save it until you have enough to do this system correctly. Without money you will most likely cobble together a POS system that you will not be happy with and it will probably blow cool air at you and suck out your limited HP.

Good Luck with what you decide to do and keep us posted with your progress.

If you want 100% "original aftermarket" look, don't expect it to work well or at all. If you want to use your AC, step up to the cashier and do it properly.

Dave

EDIT: Here is a shop in your part of the world, I know nothing about them though.
http://www.iceac.com/index.html
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Last edited by djkeev on Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:01 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just to clarify what all have said: there is no cheap way. just like so many have said, just pay up front and be happy. any other way (diy kits etc) will be more money, over and over again.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Ok, I'll add my 2cents.

That is a funky dash unit, it would be great to keep it IF you can.
The older stuff is just that... OLD !!
To make AC that will work and cool you off, you will need some upgrades to your old system.



Gilmore makes a fascia that fit those universal evap units like I have in my bug to make them look like those old ones.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
Those pictures in the 2 posts above are not service valves. Those are charging ports or fittings.

Service valves were used on vehicles in the early days of A/C. Plus are still use today on certain industrial applications, including home and stationary units. They have been mainly cut out of automotive use due to leaks.

Service valves have the capability of closing the system to hold the refrigerant charge in the system while the compressor is removed for engine (or compressor) service. These are screw type moveable valves that must be manually turned to close or open and were normally found mounted right on the compressor inlet and outlet.


You been working on too many American cars.

Jap, Euro and Korean stuff has been using the old style service ports, atleast till recently anyway, aside from my bug and charging a few friends cars up I haven't done much automotive stuff in the last few years so it may have changed since, but I know Subarus from only a couple of years ago had no such valves, as does mums 206 Peugeot Cabriolet and my Mazda daily.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
Ok, I'll add my 2cents.

That is a funky dash unit, it would be great to keep it IF you can.
The older stuff is just that... OLD !!
To make AC that will work and cool you off, you will need some upgrades to your old system.

I don't know what your budget is but if you are going to do this prepare to spend $1500 + or so to do it right.
I would suggest calling Gilmore in Florida and seriously talking to them.
http://www.gilmore-enterprises.net/GH/index.htm
I've talked to them in the past about using older housings and he was open to the idea. We didn't talk $$'s for I'd rather just purchase his new unit and have the designed in benefits as a whole system.

He, in my eyes is the "GO TO" guy for VW AC much as Chuck's is for VW convertibles. They know what they are doing and do it right.

If you don't have money, just wait and save it until you have enough to do this system correctly. Without money you will most likely cobble together a POS system that you will not be happy with and it will probably blow cool air at you and suck out your limited HP.

Good Luck with what you decide to do and keep us posted with your progress.

If you want 100% "original aftermarket" look, don't expect it to work well or at all. If you want to use your AC, step up to the cashier and do it properly.

Dave

EDIT: Here is a shop in your part of the world, I know nothing about them though.
http://www.iceac.com/index.html


the whole point of this thread is to get my OG original air conditioner going, and possibly upgrade it, but at this point its staying R12-
as for that ugly gilmore enterprises crap- throw that as far away from my car as possible- i dont want other a/c i want the original dealer installed delanair/VPC air condtioner.

I will be keeping the stock condensers but adding fans, keeping the original wiring, relay and evarportor/fan unit with controls, i will however be using a sanden 508 compressor, adding a high side and also low side pressure switch, as well as a cut out relay on the starter circuit (cuts a/c power when starting car), other than that im keeping it original. Im not worried about getting it to cool well- im sure it will. between the upgrades of a rotary compressor, new r134a capable barrier lines, added cooling capacity of condenser fans, but retaining R12, i think it will freeze my balls off.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cory464 wrote:
just to clarify what all have said: there is no cheap way. just like so many have said, just pay up front and be happy. any other way (diy kits etc) will be more money, over and over again.


pay upfront for what? i have an original a/c system. im buying new parts. is what your saying is to buy an aftermarket modern gilmore system? no thank you. ill buy lines, r12 from ebay,a sanden 508 compressor, and new fans for the condensers from jegs- it will be about 5-600. im not spending 1500 on gilmores set up. I dont put tmi interiors in my car, nor empi made in china crap- i use good used, original vw parts or NOS if available. Im not cobbling together my car with random aftermarket systems. if i were gonna do that i might as well throw a chevy small block in my bug.

Im only making the necessary upgrades to get my system running and at the same time prevent killing my motor in the process (ie ditching the york piston compressor in favor of a sanden rotary)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:

I will be keeping the stock condensers but adding fans, keeping the original wiring, relay and evarportor/fan unit with controls, i will however be using a sanden 508 compressor, adding a high side and also low side pressure switch, as well as a cut out relay on the starter circuit (cuts a/c power when starting car), other than that im keeping it original. Im not worried about getting it to cool well- im sure it will. between the upgrades of a rotary compressor, new r134a capable barrier lines, added cooling capacity of condenser fans, but retaining R12, i think it will freeze my balls off.


All smart upgrades.

A pair of S-blade thermo fans on the condensers will be a huge upgrade, the original fans are pretty pathetic.
No need for 2 switches, All modern A/C system use a single Safety switch that is duel stage LP/HP cut out that screws into the drier is all you need.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you wanna get tricky with the wiring you could get a diesel glowplug relay and wire it up so the clutch doesnt pull in till 5 or so seconds after the car has started both my bug and my Mazda daily do this as do pretty much all modern cars.
Lets the engine start up and settle before the load of the compressor cuts in.

You could also get an Idle up solenoid from an old carbed car so at idle the engine revs up when the A/C kicks in to stop stalling.

guteandtite wrote:
Well I'm gonna Have new lines done and run R12, but some time down the line I'll have to run R134a, it's inevitable, so I'll probably to the screw on adapters instead of running hoses with them built in that can only charge R134a


The Kind of service port doesnt dictate what gas you can put in, the gauges have different adapters to suit, all the gas comes in the same types of bottle.
May as well get it setup for R134a so when you do swap it's an easy change.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel wrote:
guteandtite wrote:

I will be keeping the stock condensers but adding fans, keeping the original wiring, relay and evarportor/fan unit with controls, i will however be using a sanden 508 compressor, adding a high side and also low side pressure switch, as well as a cut out relay on the starter circuit (cuts a/c power when starting car), other than that im keeping it original. Im not worried about getting it to cool well- im sure it will. between the upgrades of a rotary compressor, new r134a capable barrier lines, added cooling capacity of condenser fans, but retaining R12, i think it will freeze my balls off.


All smart upgrades.

A pair of S-blade thermo fans on the condensers will be a huge upgrade, the original fans are pretty pathetic.
No need for 2 switches, All modern A/C system use a single Safety switch that is duel stage LP/HP cut out that screws into the drier is all you need.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


If you wanna get tricky with the wiring you could get a diesel glowplug relay and wire it up so the clutch doesnt pull in till 5 or so seconds after the car has started both my bug and my Mazda daily do this as do pretty much all modern cars.
Lets the engine start up and settle before the load of the compressor cuts in.

You could also get an Idle up solenoid from an old carbed car so at idle the engine revs up when the A/C kicks in to stop stalling.

guteandtite wrote:
Well I'm gonna Have new lines done and run R12, but some time down the line I'll have to run R134a, it's inevitable, so I'll probably to the screw on adapters instead of running hoses with them built in that can only charge R134a


The Kind of service port doesnt dictate what gas you can put in, the gauges have different adapters to suit, all the gas comes in the same types of bottle.
May as well get it setup for R134a so when you do swap it's an easy change.


there were no original fans on the condensers, at least they arent on my car- were there originally (have the condensers on either side of the trans mission

ill look into the idle up solenoid- excellent idea!
any idea on what part I would search for on the diesel relay?
also, with the high low pressure switch, do i just wire that inline to the compressor clutch hot wire?

another question is I have 3 wires that go to the back of the car, taped to the soft low pressure line, im guessing they are:
black- power TO RELAY for the compressor clutch relay
white -load wire to compressor clutch from relay
green (fused) - my missing fans maybe???or??
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where are you going to get R-12 from? It hasn't been made for over 12 years, is banned from being used in vehicles and the last fill I did 13 years ago the going price was $175 per pound of R-12. It was on a Ferrari 308 and he took the last R-12 available in the city.

You're putting in R134 compatible upgrades so just plan on using 134.I've only seen a 2-3* difference in cooling temps

BTW R-134 will soon be replaced with a newer more eco friendly refrigerant.

brad
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:
Where are you going to get R-12 from? It hasn't been made for over 12 years, is banned from being used in vehicles and the last fill I did 13 years ago the going price was $175 per pound of R-12. It was on a Ferrari 308 and he took the last R-12 available in the city.

You're putting in R134 compatible upgrades so just plan on using 134.I've only seen a 2-3* difference in cooling temps

BTW R-134 will soon be replaced with a newer more eco friendly refrigerant.

brad


im aware to the coolants. I have 5 cans of R12. I believe thats more than plenty to charge my system initially. The new proposed refrigerent is CO2- um yeah, CO2- thats not gonna work so well. anyhow, I have R12, just need the rest of the parts and head over to an A/C shop to have it vacuumed and charged when Im ready. its ilegal for stores to Still sell R12. No manufacturers have used it since 94. but if you have R12, and you have a system with R12, a shop can charge it for you providing the system is in good condition and not leaking. if it leaks you must repair it before it can be charged. thats the rules in a nutshell
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, it's quite foolish to use R-12 today. Especially when the system is R-134 compatible.

slalombuggy wrote:
BTW R-134 will soon be replaced with a newer more eco friendly refrigerant.

It's a good dozen years before that's outlawed.

The Europeans have us beat. They're using methanol in their refrigerators. They are about 5% more efficient, and there's absolutely no halocarbon regulations to deal with. If it leaks, so what.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

anyone know where I can find a wiring diagram for the a/c? ive looked on the samba archives pages, service bulletins, and both the 58-60 and 61-65 bentleys- nada.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:


there were no original fans on the condensers, at least they arent on my car- were there originally (have the condensers on either side of the trans mission

ill look into the idle up solenoid- excellent idea!
any idea on what part I would search for on the diesel relay?
also, with the high low pressure switch, do i just wire that inline to the compressor clutch hot wire?

another question is I have 3 wires that go to the back of the car, taped to the soft low pressure line, im guessing they are:
black- power TO RELAY for the compressor clutch relay
white -load wire to compressor clutch from relay
green (fused) - my missing fans maybe???or??


Those twin condenser setups originally just had one with a fan on top drawing air up through and one without which relied on road draft.
A pair of S-blade fans ontop of each will work very well.

Just any diesel glow plug relay that runs for 5 or so secs you could make work but it would be easier to turn the a/c off and let the hot air out of the car before you turn it on in the first place.

Just wire the safety switch so it cuts power to the clutch relay if it trips.
I'll have a look around and see if the wiring diagram that came with my evap unit is still floating around, it's very basic though.

You can find wiring diagrams on google

One thing I learned was run the condenser fan and compressor clutch on seperate relays.
I had them paired together running off one relays and as the thermostat drops them out when it;s down to temp the fans spinning keeps the clutch engergised and it doesnt release properly till they stop spinning and acting like generators, it;s really bad for the clutch.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Re: converting 1967 dealer installed a/c to r134a Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:
does anyone here have a beetle with dealer installed A/C that theyve converted from R12 to R134a?
Id like to get the system in my 67 beetle running again and R12 is impossible to find, as well as getting new lines for R-12 is unobtanium.

what all needs to be changed?


Sorry to upset you! Read your original post again. (I quoted it here for your convenience) I see nothing saying you have 5 cans of R12, you ask for advice to switch it over to R134a, you ask about upgrades and now you're all pissy about the advice you received and that you don't want to switch gases, read my answer to you..."Keep your funky old unit if you can". You ignored this portion of my post and simply state that you don't want any Gilmore crap!!

You already have your mind made up and it isn't anything like your original post led us to believe.



Best of luck!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel wrote:
guteandtite wrote:


there were no original fans on the condensers, at least they arent on my car- were there originally (have the condensers on either side of the trans mission

ill look into the idle up solenoid- excellent idea!
any idea on what part I would search for on the diesel relay?
also, with the high low pressure switch, do i just wire that inline to the compressor clutch hot wire?

another question is I have 3 wires that go to the back of the car, taped to the soft low pressure line, im guessing they are:
black- power TO RELAY for the compressor clutch relay
white -load wire to compressor clutch from relay
green (fused) - my missing fans maybe???or??


Those twin condenser setups originally just had one with a fan on top drawing air up through and one without which relied on road draft.
A pair of S-blade fans ontop of each will work very well.

Just any diesel glow plug relay that runs for 5 or so secs you could make work but it would be easier to turn the a/c off and let the hot air out of the car before you turn it on in the first place.

Just wire the safety switch so it cuts power to the clutch relay if it trips.
I'll have a look around and see if the wiring diagram that came with my evap unit is still floating around, it's very basic though.

You can find wiring diagrams on google

One thing I learned was run the condenser fan and compressor clutch on seperate relays.
I had them paired together running off one relays and as the thermostat drops them out when it;s down to temp the fans spinning keeps the clutch engergised and it doesnt release properly till they stop spinning and acting like generators, it;s really bad for the clutch.


So if I add a binary switch it goes In line with the compressor clutch hot wire to cut it off if pressure drops.

If I do a binary, do I add a heat sensor somewhere and wire 2 wires to turn on the fan and 2 to cut out the compressor clutch?

Those are both low side off the drier, if I add a high side switch what does it get wired to?

What are the green, black and white wires going to the back of the car?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joel wrote:

Those twin condenser setups originally just had one with a fan on top drawing air up through and one without which relied on road draft.


Correct. If anyone is interested, here's a reference photo from a '65 with the same setup. The fan is only on the left condenser (driver's side)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

67 Florida Deluxe wrote:
Joel wrote:

Those twin condenser setups originally just had one with a fan on top drawing air up through and one without which relied on road draft.


Correct. If anyone is interested, here's a reference photo from a '65 with the same setup. The fan is only on the left condenser (driver's side)

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hey 67 F D, great pics, keep em coming!
have anymore pics of the a/c on our car? know a wrecking yard or enthusiast who might have parts?
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67 Florida Deluxe
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guteandtite wrote:

hey 67 F D, great pics, keep em coming!
have anymore pics of the a/c on our car? know a wrecking yard or enthusiast who might have parts?


Unfortunately, I do not know of anyone with any parts. These were very expensive options (relative to the cost of the car), so few were installed. Also, as they started to fail over the years, they were just bypassed or replaced with more modern components.

This was installed in my '65 about two months after delivery to the US. It was a car given to the Brundage Motors dealerhship (now Brumos in Jax, FL) by VW and was used by Mrs. Brundage (for a while). It was eventually stored in a barn and has under 12k original miles. I purchased it from a Brundage family member and retrieved it from the barn, where it had sat for 26 years. The system is complete and still functions, though it needs a refrigerant top-off to be cold (the system still has a charge in it, though). The setup for '67 would be the same, but 12volts to the evap fan motor and condensor fan motor. Mine is 6v, since '65 had 6v electrics. Also, the evaporator housing was painted to match the interior of the car. Mine is Bahama Blue. The unit is in great cosmetic condition. Some have suggested scrapping the original components had retrofitting the evap unit with a modern evaporator coil. No thanks Speak to the hand . This car is complete, has a cool provenance, and still has under 12,000 miles. This one will stay original. However, for a daily driver, I could see the up side for gutting the innerds and using new, but keep the original housing.

The dealership also installed a 6v VDO oil temp gauge to monitor the engine temperature with the AC. Since these rob 5 to 7 horses, it was smart to keep an eye on the temp. The sending unit replaces the oil dip stick. The gauge works fine; though I had it refurbished and tested for calibration since these pics.

Here are some pics when first got the car (these are from my gallery). I hope they help you with the configuration of yours.

-Kent

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slalombuggy wrote:
Where are you going to get R-12 from? It hasn't been made for over 12 years, is banned from being used in vehicles and the last fill I did 13 years ago the going price was $175 per pound of R-12. brad

Not correct. At least in US, R-12 is still available to be purchased (get an online 609 license to be legal to buy). It's still available, and ABSOLUTELY legal to use in systems originally designed for R-12. There is actually very little demand, as most of the vehicles using R-12 have been removed from the roads.

I'd be glad to sell you R-12 at half the price you mentioned. Or you can buy on Ebay or through online refrigerant retailers. My 1988 Mazda truck still uses R-12.
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