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GüteAndTite Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005 Posts: 2144 Location: Low So Cal
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GüteAndTite Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005 Posts: 2144 Location: Low So Cal
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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ok, so again:
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o-rings so the system doesnt leak. CAN new R12 lines be made? I know they are different than r134.
IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.
Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12? _________________ Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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JerryMCarter1 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 6199 Location: N.W. Phoenix
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: |
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your on the right track -- give the thread time - more will come in ! _________________ Experience always triumphs over hearsay and You get to select which theory to believe |
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GüteAndTite Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005 Posts: 2144 Location: Low So Cal
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Gary wrote: |
guteandtite wrote: |
Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.
IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.
Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12? |
How difficult would it be for you to either use a copy of the Yellow Pages or http://www.yellowpages.com and find a local licensed A/C shop who can answer these questions? |
well the couple of shops I called havent ever delt with an aircooled vw with a/c. i was hoping that theres someone on the samba in the vw community whos been through this who could give me some pointers _________________ Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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GüteAndTite Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005 Posts: 2144 Location: Low So Cal
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torsionbar Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 2215 Location: earf
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: |
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corblimey79 wrote: |
It doesnt get as cold as R12 but neither does R134a after a conversion, |
wrong. r134 gets just as cold after a conversion... provided you've changed your condenser to a larger one. r134 needs a larger condenser than r12, as i stated already. if you don't change your condenser for a larger one, you didn't do a proper conversion, and yes, you'll have piss poor performance.
corblimey79 wrote: |
Wouldn't hurt to try it! |
aside from the time you've wasted and the money you've flushed down the toilet, no, trying that gimmick product won't hurt anything. are you a freeze 12 salesman??? |
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Gary Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002 Posts: 17069 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:56 am Post subject: |
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guteandtite wrote: |
Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.
IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.
Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12? |
How difficult would it be for you to either use a copy of the Yellow Pages or http://www.yellowpages.com and find a local licensed A/C shop who can answer these questions? _________________ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
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corblimey79 Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2011 Posts: 135 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:54 am Post subject: |
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2 words.........SWAMP COOLER!!!
_________________ (o)\_!_/(o) 74 Super.
"The Minge Mobile" AKA "Ginger Minge" |
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GüteAndTite Early Convertible Güru
Joined: June 16, 2005 Posts: 2144 Location: Low So Cal
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Ok
So at this point
IF I STAY WITH THE CURRENT SYSTEM- I could have a shop vacuum the system and recharge it with R12. I'd like to howeve replace the soft lines and o rings so the system doran leak. CAN new R12 be made? I know they are different than r134.
IF I DECIDE TO CHANGE TO R134a
I know I need a sanden rotary type compressor, new R134a lines and seals and converted charging ports, as well as a r134a specific dryer, then it all needs to be flushed vacuumed and charged with R134a. Do I also need to change the expansion valve in the evaporator to one with a different size orifice since the refrigerant is changing? I've heard r134a if actually inefficient compared to r12 because the condensers on new cars are straight thru bypass construction where old ones are serpentine. So I may need to change my condensers to slightly larger ones or ditch the original serpentine ones for straight thru bypass condensers.
Does anyone know if I can have new lines made from the newer style r134a barrier lines but still use r12? _________________ Official 58-60 "Early Big Window" Convertible Thread & Registry
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426481
F&S Saxomat Automatic Clutch System Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=462533
61-67 Delanair Air conditioning Thread
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457944&highlight=air+conditioning
PUNCTUATION CHANGES THE WORLD: "I need to help my uncle, Jack, off a horse" is way better than, "I need to help my uncle jack off a horse" |
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dcnjoe60 Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2008 Posts: 434 Location: Missouri
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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68IHscout wrote: |
R12 is illegal in the US ,peopele have gotten busted for contraband bringing r12 across the border from mexico. |
R12 is not illegal in the United States, it is available from a number of sources. Of course transporting various substance across the border may be illegal, especially chemicals. You cannot bring R12 into the country without a permit, but that is the same with sulfuric acid and any number of things, including cigars from Cuba. |
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corblimey79 Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2011 Posts: 135 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:14 am Post subject: |
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It doesnt get as cold as R12 but neither does R134a after a conversion, we have alot of customers that use this mostly farmers, and they tend to complain alot! lol.....sorry to any farmers reading this. ) and i've never heard a complaint. I dont know first hand how well it works, just suggesting a cheaper way of adding freon without changing anything. Wouldn't hurt to try it!
Dan _________________ (o)\_!_/(o) 74 Super.
"The Minge Mobile" AKA "Ginger Minge" |
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torsionbar Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 2215 Location: earf
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:08 am Post subject: |
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lol. do a google search and see some of the feedback and results people are having with that product. it's mostly negative. |
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corblimey79 Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2011 Posts: 135 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Oh and its cheap unlike R12 which runs over $40 a can!!! this stuff sells for around $8 $-$12 if i remember right! Anyone can buy this stuff too!
Dan _________________ (o)\_!_/(o) 74 Super.
"The Minge Mobile" AKA "Ginger Minge"
Last edited by corblimey79 on Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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corblimey79 Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2011 Posts: 135 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Converting a system is easy, but if you dont want to change anything on the car you can now get a R12 alternative! example: Freeze 12
http://www.freeze12.com/
You need a special hose to charge your vehicle unless you use a can tapping hose! Something to think about. We sell this at NAPA.
Dan _________________ (o)\_!_/(o) 74 Super.
"The Minge Mobile" AKA "Ginger Minge" |
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torsionbar Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2010 Posts: 2215 Location: earf
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: |
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the original system sucks. as already mentioned, the original compressor is very inefficient. you want a modern rotary compressor. also, to properly convert a system from r12 to r134, you need to replace all the barrier hoses, all the seals, and you need a larger sized condenser.
once you've bought all of that, you'll find it much cheaper to just buy a complete r134 system like the one gilmore offers.
if all you do is replace the fittings and fill with r134, as some of those cheap $25 auto-parts store kits would have you believe, you'll end up with system that leaks like a sieve and even when fully charged, will give very poor cooling results.
Last edited by torsionbar on Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JerryMCarter1 Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 6199 Location: N.W. Phoenix
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 10:00 am Post subject: |
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ya at $85.00 an hour ! _________________ Experience always triumphs over hearsay and You get to select which theory to believe |
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Gary Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002 Posts: 17069 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:50 am Post subject: |
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^^
Meaningless drivel aside, the proper course of action is to seek the services of a licensed professional. _________________ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
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candymustang65 Banned
Joined: January 11, 2010 Posts: 1674 Location: APPLE VALLEY
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Not Me I never break the law !
Ehh never done a R-134 Bugg compressor but done a lott of conversion's .
At one time many year's ago even had a sett of gauges and a vaccum pump .
Wich bring's us too the kitt they sell at Napa .
Some Kitt's have a gauge some dont .
Your's is a stock OEM A.C. kind of old more than likely has a leak but often will last a season provided it's a very slow leak .
The R-134 kitt comes with leak detector die and a coupla can's .
What happen's most often with chargeing the system by novice mechanic's with one of these kitts is no gauges and even with the gauge type kitt they over pressurize the system causeing an existing leak to leak worse or causeing a leak .
This is due to failure of how the can and punture apparatus work's .
You install the can in the hose assembly .
Then turn the hand valve in until the spike punctures the can .
Note : Most people think that once the can is puntured your chargeing the system .
You are in fact not chargeing nothin much is comming out of the can due to the spike is blocking the hole .
So they start cranking the hand valve back out .
Wooosh the can empty's itself all at once over pressureizeing the system and causes a leak .
The idea is to charge a system slowly as in ever so slowly so as not to Over Pressurize the system .
Tipp : crank hand valve back out slowly feeling the can if you can feel it moveing turn it back in .
Kitt come's with complete instruction's .
Some have a gauge < tell's you when your over pressurizeing the system .
Realize you have a high side < Bigg line and a low side High pressure side Smaller diameter line .
R- 12 will burn you as well as R-134 .
can suffer serious injury .
Read the instruction's in the Kitt .
Over pressureizeing can cause serious injuries .
So understand it .
Leak's are often at connection's and O-ring's are often the source of leak's .
Back up wrench and tubeing wrenches are required there soft aluminum line .
Removeing a A.C. line on a pressurized system can cause serious injury .
Might pay to have a Licensed tech Vaccum pump the system .
But on old system's that your sure are vacant of freon ?
It's sworth it to just charge the system with a R-134 kitt and get some Dye in it see where it leak's ?
Sean |
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Paul Windisch Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2009 Posts: 2546 Location: Clinton Township, Michigan
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:46 am Post subject: |
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It isn't illegal, it's just harder to come by and more expensive. By the way, R-12 is a much more efficient refrigerant than 134, so given the choice, stick with R-12. _________________ *ASE Recertified Master Automotive Tech*
1984 Mexican Beetle
-1914cc
-L3 Heads 35x32 valves 52cc chambers
-0.040" deck for about 9.1:1 Compression
-Engle W110 cam
-CB Super Stock 1.1:1 Rockers
-Stock Heat Exchangers w/ Tri-Mil Muffler
-Dual Weber IDF 40s w/ 26mm venturis
-034 SVDA Distributor
2013 Chevrolet Volt DD
2005 Pontiac Montana SV6
MAHLE Service Solutions
Applications Engineer |
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Gary Person of Interest
Joined: November 01, 2002 Posts: 17069 Location: 127.0.0.1
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Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:20 am Post subject: |
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68IHscout wrote: |
R12 is illegal in the US ,peopele have gotten busted for contraband bringing r12 across the border from mexico. |
Wrong. It is illegal to import into the US. _________________ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
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