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My free T3 Squareback w/ automatic and a T4 engine.
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: My free T3 Squareback w/ automatic and a T4 engine. Reply with quote

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Got ya, that is the semi current picture

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This is what it really looked like when I got it (cleaned and paint buffed).

I was originally given my 73 auto Squareback by a gentleman who was getting too old to work on his own cars. My 8 year old son and I were walking up to my T1 and he approached us and said “I have this old Squareback that has been sitting for years, and I would like to give it to someone who appreciates VWs. He gave me his # and address and told me to call him. I’m thinking, “Yeah right, what do you mean by give”. After a couple of days I called him up and asked if I could see it. So, I drove over and it looked in pretty bad shape. It had been sitting for years under a tree and the whole back section was stuffed with spare parts. However, it was sitting there idling. I told him that I would have to check with my wife. He said” here is the pink slip, go talk to her. I ran the VIN through DMV and it had fallen off the record (no back fees), so I drove it home the next day.

My original plan was to fix it up and sell it for money to trick out my Baja Bug. However, after I kept driving it and no one wanted to buy it for $ 2000 I decided to keep it, fix it up and give it a little more power. From my experience with the type 1 and heating issues, I decided to put a Type 4 engine instead. It took about a year and a half and when it was done I took it back to show him. At first he didn’t recognize me, then I retold the story and he came out to look at it. I thought that he was going to cry. It turns out it had been his wife’s car, and that’s why he was so emotional. He went back inside the house and got his video camera and kept going around the car for what seemed like 20 minutes of filming. All the while saying, that he wished that she could see it now. I am so glad that I didn’t sell it and I now know that the T3 is a far better car then the T1.


I have been driving VWs for over 25 years. In fact, the only daily driver that I have ever had has been a T1. I have used many different engine combinations from stock to wild. My current daily T1 driver is a 2110 with Porsche length Carrillo rods 110 cam and 44 Webers. I also modified a 1-5/8 merged Bobcat hideaway for heater boxes. These are also custom made, with 1-5/8 J tubes with aluminum fins heat-shrunken on. My Baja has a 2010 with Porsche “B” rods, FK8 cam with 1:1.4 rockers and dual Solex 40P11s on a Bus transaxle with a 486 RP. I also live in the San Joaquin valley so that if I go any where I must travel over a one of many mountain ranges (some over 7%) to get to my destination and the summer runs in the 100s regularly. Therefore I believe that my experience with the type 1 / 3 motor and my time with VWs have given me a good base for this comparison.


It seems that there is no “right” way to do a type 4 conversion into a type 3. Each one that I have noticed tended to do it their way. My conversion is no exception, it is a little different then the others that I have seen. Probably the most important part of the conversion deals with the cooling air flange. Since I didn’t have a T4 flange or boot, I stuck with all T3 components. The main difference between my flange and the others that I have seen is that it is a sealed unit similar to a type 3. This took quite a lot of work, probably more work them most people put in the whole conversion. However, I am now pulling all of my cooling air from the outside, just like the original T3 engine did.

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You can’t tell from the photo, but every mating surface to the fan housing has a flat surface (some internal). I then used high heat foam to fill in any gaps. There are also six screws that hold it on around the perimeter, so it has a pretty good seal. The only warm air that it brings in is the air from the alternator. Here it is installed. It is a little bit harder to change the belt now, but I feel the tradeoff is well worth it.

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The next difference in the conversions is the motor mounts. Many use the T3 hanger bar, but air conditioning is in the future and the T3 bar was in the way of the compressor belt and mounting brackets. I then used the stock bus mustache bar and rubber motor mounts. I then fabbed up some mounting brackets using square tubing and flat stock.

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For the mid mount, I welded some heavy channel to the shock mount area on the car. I then made a cross bar that mounted to the transaxle and the used the stock rubber bus mounts to suspend the bar from the channel. This is the modified version.

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For the exhaust I used 72-74 bus heater boxes and a modified Thunderbird type header. I then cut the flange off of the header and welded on a flange to accept a Suzuki Hyabusa muffler. I also made a support hanger to take some of the muffler weight off of the mounting flange. Here are a couple of pictures of those.

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My main goal was to build a conversion that looked like it belonged in the car. My engine did not have the fuel injection so I went with carburetion. In one of the header photos you can see the PSDITs. However, I could not get these carburetors to work right. The engine ran great cold, but as soon as it got hot it would barely run. I tried to adjust the carbs per the Bentley, and also from some directions off of the web, but they just wouldn’t work right hot. A friend had picked up some Brazilian Webers for nothing off of the bay so I tried them and they worked great with the only adjustment needed was a larger main jet.

The motor itself is pretty mild. It is a 2L, with a Scat C25 cam, ported and polished 1700 heads with 8:1, 0.045 deck. Balanced stock rods (end to end & total) 914 P&C, Solid spacer 1700 rocker arms with swivel adjusters (Ford). 72-74 heater boxes with thunderbird header and Suzuki Hyabusa muffler. It also has Brazilian 36mm Webers, had a 009 dizzy and an automatic transaxle and a fresh air intake.

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I have had it in the car for almost three years now. It has a power band that was just what I was hoping for. It pulls really hard down low, but still has a little on top. It is a great freeway flyer. The fastest I have had it was up to 95 and it was still pulling strong. The combination I used also seems to work great with the shift points of the automatic. On its own it shifts right before the cam tops out. Don’t tell my wife, but if you floor it from a stop (in drive) it will do 0-60 in about 9 seconds. Rowing the shifter doesn’t really add much and I didn’t really build this car for that purpose anyway. The best test was taking it on a long distant run over one of our local mountain ranges. So the family and I took a day trip to Santa Cruz. We had 2 adults and 2 kids plus both ends full of gear. The outside temperature was somewhere around 95 degrees and I tend to drive about 72mph. That is where the motor seems happy and you don’t get the risk of being run over. To get to Santa Cruz, you have to drive through Pacheco Pass. It’s got some good rolling hills, but a pretty mean 1300ft climb at the end. The Type 4 motor really shined in the hills. I was able to maintain my normal driving speed (70sh), it never downshifted and the oil temp never got over 195°. Also checking the fuel mileage, I got 24 mpg both ways, and I was pushing it


That first trip over the pass was ideal weather. I could get up my speed at the bottom and keep it up the hills. The real test was a couple of weeks later when we had a good rain storm and winds (The kind that push you around). I had to go over the same pass to go to Hollister. This time I was unable to set up for the hills, so I was hitting them at much lower speeds. However, the type 4 didn’t care it would just accelerate up the hills with no down shifting, just torque. The torque feel is like comparing a diesel to gas engine.

I did have a couple of issues though. The first one was that it tended to bog at the shift points when you were just driving normally. If you gave it a little more gas when this happened, it would keep on going. It wasn’t a major issue just annoying. The second was I lost the tranny (oil puddle, then reverse-drive clutch). When I finally got a new auto for it, I discovered that the mid mount I made wouldn’t allow me to pull the engine and trans together. So I modified it so in the future they would come out as a unit (T1 guy mistake). I then decided to explore the bog. The Brazilian Webers are a very simple carb, so I couldn’t do much adjusting. I posted a thread in the engine section with the different distributers that I had and Glenn suggested I go with the 050. So I took it apart, lubed and shimmed as necessary and it drives like a completely different engine. No more bogs between shifts and it also runs better when sitting at a stop light in gear. It is raining and cold now, but when it warms up, I would like to do a temp and MPG test when the conditions are more comparable.

So, if you want a car that can keep up with modern traffic and go over mountain passes with ease, I recommend the Type 4 conversion. Just my 2¢W.

Oh, by the way I “might” have $3G total in the whole car. In my opinion, the most important part of doing a T4 conversion is by getting a good core. I guess I got lucky. I was also able to keep the cost down by getting parts from the bay and doing all the work myself (my 82 year old dad did the heads though).

I will probably start another pissing contest, but for me the main purpose of this build was to have a car that I could get in it and just drive anywhere and any time in comfort without worrying about overheating or getting run over. I have not done anything to the car that can not be undone. I have the original engine and FI sitting in the shed pickled, and all of the other FI equipment plus spares boxed up. You never know what BS “Big Brother” may throw at us smog wise and this is one car I will never part with.

The next step is to install AC. I have two complete sets of everything I need, I even have a new compressor that is pickled and still in the factory box. I won’t be using the VW compressor though. I will be using a modern Sanden compressor. I have the brackets already made, I just need the time to do it. And no I won’t sell any of the extra AC parts (well maybe the compressors).

I know I’ll catch some flak about speed and other irrelevant issues. However, either one of my T1s help in that area, plus this Easter we are heading to the desert for a week, and there my 55HP, 230lb, TM 300 (dirt bike) will give me all the adrenaline my 47 year old body can handle for awhile.

Oh, and a big thanks to Ray G. You gave me “A Lot” of help with my FI when the engine was stock (STF).
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notchboy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a pretty slick set up there. I think Id of done the same or along those lines.
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vwfye
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, that was some serious shroud work. nice job!

may i ask? are those regular bus intake manifolds or are they shorter? i ask because i would like to put carbs on my 412's 1800 as the FI system is filled with very brittle wiring and i'm a carb guy, not a wiring guy...

nice job!
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude friggin amazing, ya the type 4 motor is definitely a viable option for a type 3. Are you using a 411/412 flexplate to mate to the type 3 auto? I know that question has come up before. I really like how your shroud turned out. I'm using a 411/412 air duct, made some ears out of aluminum and shortened the stock bellows, but it doesn't look as good as your shroud. I'm also running the same exhaust but i'm using a bugpack quite pack for a bus, its pretty restrictive, I might go with a gixxer or a busa muffler.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

supaninja wrote:
Dude friggin amazing, ya the type 4 motor is definitely a viable option for a type 3. Are you using a 411/412 flexplate to mate to the type 3 auto? I know that question has come up before. I really like how your shroud turned out. I'm using a 411/412 air duct, made some ears out of aluminum and shortened the stock bellows, but it doesn't look as good as your shroud. I'm also running the same exhaust but i'm using a bugpack quite pack for a bus, its pretty restrictive, I might go with a gixxer or a busa muffler.


see his intake? Running the tubing along the underside of the deck? that was what I envisioned when I posted in ur thread supa. just instead have the air cleaner over in that rounded corner.
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first Nice T4 to T3 shroud we've seen. Cool You and your wife will love the AT! Exclamation
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trailblazr81
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice. Thats what I want. Except a manual trans. I go over Pacheco Pass on a regular basis and have a 98 Ford Ranger 4x4 that struggles to do 70 over it. I also plan on camping trips in Yosemite and Mammoth taking dirt roads. Plus with family in Redding, trips to Mt. Shasta and Lassen. Any way to get a video recording of that exhaust setup? Would like to know what that Hyabusa muffler sounds like on a VW.
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supaninja
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

trailblazr81 wrote:
Very nice. Thats what I want. Except a manual trans. I go over Pacheco Pass on a regular basis. I also plan on camping trips in Yosemite and Mammoth. Plus with family in Redding trips to Mt. Shasta and Lassen. Any way to get a video recording of that exhaust setup? Would like to know what that Hyabusa muffler sounds like on a VW.


Me too!
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll try to get something done. It's not loud, but it "LOVES" to set off car alarms as you idle by, especially in a parking garages. However, I am in desert mode right now with 3 dirtbikes in the garage getting the 4 times over. Its no fun to break in the middle of no where.
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Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
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T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, well done. I'm always impressed by folks who do non-hack T4 installations into a T3.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it. Nice clean install. Did you have to cut down the bus intakes? Just asking, because I've got a set of carbs and manifolds for a t-4, and that would give me an option if I don't like how the FI works on my t-4 engine. I mean the FI works ok, but it is an older set up. Wink
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be truthful, I "think" that they are short bus manifolds, I still have these manifolds and they measure approximately 4-1/2” high. If anyone wants them cheap, send me a pm and we’ll work it out. One of the “Biggest Misconceptions” in doing the T4 swap is that you need some “Ultra Short Intake Manifolds” (it depends on the carbs you use). This is one truth that I learned from the T1 side.

A lot of people put bus transaxles in their Baja bugs. Currently, mine is a 5 rib, but the first one I put in was a 3 rib (too low geared). There are two ways to do this: the cheap and easy way (wrong IMNSHO) and the right way.

The easy way is to buy cheap solid motor mounts that lifts the transaxles higher in the frame horns. You then cut a hole in the tunnel and weld a shift box on top of the tunnel. The shift rod then is on top of the tunnel and you loose the e-brake.

The other way is to either buy very expensive motor mounts, (or like me) make your own. Then the nose of the transaxles is tilted down so the shift rod is still in the tunnel. When you do this the engine and transaxles are tilted about 15°. This is a very common practice and I have never heard of an engine or transaxles failure that was brought on by doing this.

So I used this method to setup my conversion, I set the engine height by the type of intake system I was going to use. I was a little concerned though, since I was going to be using an auto. So I talked with Ray G about this, and he felt that a couple of degrees would not hurt the auto either.

So I assembled an empty long block, put on the manifolds, carbs and air cleaner and made my motor mounts to give me the clearance I needed. However, I did pay attention to the force that was being placed on the front transaxles mount since they are NLA. The one problem I ran into was when I swapped over to the Brazilian Webers. They were a taller carb, but I found some shorty manifolds for the baby Webers. They bolted right up and were the same height as the stock carb and manifold setup.

Now in VWFYE’s and Bobnotch’s situations, you already have your motor mounts made. However, if you needed a little extra room to switch your intake systems, I would probably try and make some spacer / adapters to drop the engine a little bit instead of going to the expense of getting the ultra shorty manifolds.
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69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
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kooldub
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

strong work and great write up! square looks real good and sounds like fun ride! Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info. I'll have to check the manifolds I have here to see how tall they are. I've got them, along with both carbs (Solex), and the linkage.
Mine's currently FI, but I'm really a carb guy, so this swap may happen some time down the road.
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tdrrally
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very well done

thank you for sharing.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really heart my type 4 motor!
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also a carb man myself. Since I was knee high to a grasshopper, I've been around all sort of high performance engines. From hopped up VWs & Porsches, to 2 & 4 stroke dirtbikes. If you wanted good performace, you had to know how to read the engine and jet it. Now distributers and advance curve is another story. I know the basics (well maybe a little more), but I have a lot to learn. This is one area that is kind of a dark art, and it is hard to get info on.

I have been trying to gather all the advance curve graphs that I can and it has been my latest obsession (when I have time). I have been making a few special tools for testing different compenents of the dizzys, but all they will give me is static information. I have all my feelers out for a distributer machine though.

For my setup, the 050 is far better then the 009, but it has some of its own issues. I like the feel of the curve, but I now feel that it has too much advance built into the distributer. So before it gets too hot and I can find some free time somewhere, I want to do a little playing with some different distributers and see if I can make something a little better for my setup.
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69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just scored an 055 bus distributor out of the 57 oval rag. It was the Only thing I "stole" out of the car Taylor! Scouts Honor! Exclamation
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Multi69s
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are the characteristics of the 055? Is it a cast iron body or alum? Curve like a 010 or 019? Inquiring minds want to know.
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73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member


Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17075
Location: Eugene, OR
Mike Fisher is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is aluminum w/big dual outlet vacuum advance.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey
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