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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 12:07 pm Post subject: no brake pedal pressure |
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Hi all,
Need all the help I can get. Now working on my son's 1970 Ghia he purchased, and we do not know how long it sat. It had no brakes, so we replaced most of the brake lines and the master cyl. We drove it, brakes worked but poorly and car turned sharply left when braking. We replaced the front frozen cylinders and now we have no brake pedal at all. Bled all 4 wheels many times and still the pedal drops to the floor. Could use some help or maybe magic beans!!!
Thank you in advance for your help,
Gary |
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Ian Godfrey Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2006 Posts: 1137 Location: Melbourne Australia
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2023 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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A few things to look at.
Is any air getting in the master cylinder from perished grommets on the fill side?
sometimes even a new master cylinder can be bad, is it a 'reasonable' quality one?
Are all the hard line and soft lines leak free?
Check the soft lines closely as some times they swell up on the inside!!!!!
Then start bleeding the back wheels first, sometimes it helps to raise the back of the car a bit so the bubbles can rise up hill.
when you do the fronts put the back down and raise the front
Let it sit overnight and do it again, I don't know why but sometimes it all goes much better on day 2
good luck |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8211 Location: San Dimas
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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Ian an Darrel,
Thank you very much for the help. All lines look good, no leaks and most have been replaced. I bled the lines several times and finally decided to replace the new master cylinder. Auto Zone took it back and tomorrow I will discuss with Jbugs and order a replacement.
Thanks again,
Gary |
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kent70ghia Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2020 Posts: 176 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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I have a 70 ghia also, and had very similar issues, replaced calipers, master cylinder, and still had problems. Finally I replaced the rubber brake lines, and that solved the problems. Good luck with your challenges! I purchased a master cylinder from jbugs, without looking, I think I went with the German one, and new brake light switches. A word to the wise, don't toss the old switches. I couldn't get one of the new ones to stop leaking, put one of the old ones in, worked like a charm.
49gary wrote: |
Ian an Darrel,
Thank you very much for the help. All lines look good, no leaks and most have been replaced. I bled the lines several times and finally decided to replace the new master cylinder. Auto Zone took it back and tomorrow I will discuss with Jbugs and order a replacement.
Thanks again,
Gary |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2023 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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If you do not know how old the flex lines are, then replace them all. They can look perfectly fine outside, but there is an inner liner that can break up to clog or even at as a one way valve. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Hi All,
I am back with an update. I replaced the new mater cylinder with one from JBugs and it reacts exactly the same as the first replacement. Again after coming out of storage for many years I replaced the front cylinders and the master cylinder because they were leaking. Now with new cylinders and a second new master the pedal still drops to the floor. I have bled the lines many times using a vacuum tool and still no pedal. I set the brake pedal to match the clutch pedal about 8" from the fire wall. I have adjusted the brake pedal plunger all the way in and all the way out and still no pedal. The rubber lines look good and no signs of a leak anywhere.
I would appreciate any more suggestions.
Thank you,
Gary |
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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Hi All,
I am back with an update. I replaced the new mater cylinder with one from JBugs and it reacts exactly the same as the first replacement. Again after coming out of storage for many years I replaced the front cylinders and the master cylinder because they were leaking. Now with new cylinders and a second new master the pedal still drops to the floor. I have bled the lines many times using a vacuum tool and still no pedal. I set the brake pedal to match the clutch pedal about 8" from the fire wall. I have adjusted the brake pedal plunger all the way in and all the way out and still no pedal. The rubber lines look good and no signs of a leak anywhere.
I would appreciate any more suggestions.
Thank you,
Gary |
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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Eric and Kent,
If the rubber lines were bad should I be able to see a leak?
Thank you,
Gary |
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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Dear all,
Could I have bench filled the master cylinders incorrectly?
I did my best at the bench but did not use a reservoir. All line holes were plugged and the top plastic nipples removed. The plunger was moved in and out 1 inch at a time and fluid added through the top as fluid came out of line openings they were unplugged then replugged then I moved on to the next line opening. Installed the cylinder and removed the plugs one by one and installed the lines. I think this is right but not sure all the air was removed. Since a vacuum bleeder was used I am hoping all air was removed. Any thoughts?
Thank you,
Gary |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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49gary wrote: |
Eric and Kent,
If the rubber lines were bad should I be able to see a leak?
Thank you,
Gary |
No! Again, they act as a one way valve (pressure into the wheel/slave cylinder, but not back to the MC) or completely clog up. Being the inner liner fails, but the outer liner does not. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Also did you take apart the rear wheel cylinders to inspect?? If not, you should. Standard brake fluid attracts water right out of the air, then rusts up all of the cylinders from the inside out.
We went from 18 to 24 months between taking the brake system apart to clean out rust and replace that which could not be saved.
Switched to DOT 5 brake fluid and now getting about 8 years between working on the hydraulics of the brakes in our wet rainy PNW climate. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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kent70ghia Samba Member
Joined: June 15, 2020 Posts: 176 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2023 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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49gary wrote: |
Eric and Kent,
If the rubber lines were bad should I be able to see a leak?
Thank you,
Gary |
No you can't tell from the outside. They dont leak. Mine looked good, when I replaced them, I cut the old ones, and it looked like they were solid rubber. The pedal gives enough force to push fluid to the calipers, but not enough pressure to return to the master cylinder and reservoir. |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3819 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 7:36 am Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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I’ve tried a suction bleeder before but not with good results.
I switched to a Motive power bleeder and that thing just works.
_________________ Volkswagen!
Turning owners into mechanics since 1938.
“Let he that is without oil throw the first rod”
(Compression 8.7:1) |
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49gary Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2016 Posts: 56 Location: Freedom, PA
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 9:09 am Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Dear all,
Thanks again for all the suggestions. Sorry about the double posting not sure how that happened. Well, I bit the bullet and removed the master cyl. and bench bled it again. This time I also remove the reservoir and used it for the bleeding. Again, no brake pedal. Bled the brakes again and still no pedal. Tried sucking air up through the reinstalled reservoir and still no pedal. I give up. Going to have to take it to a mechanic.
Thanks again,
Gary |
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Braukuche Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 11005
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:06 am Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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49gary wrote: |
Dear all,
Thanks again for all the suggestions. Sorry about the double posting not sure how that happened. Well, I bit the bullet and removed the master cyl. and bench bled it again. This time I also remove the reservoir and used it for the bleeding. Again, no brake pedal. Bled the brakes again and still no pedal. Tried sucking air up through the reinstalled reservoir and still no pedal. I give up. Going to have to take it to a mechanic.
Thanks again,
Gary |
Did you adjust the rear brake shoes all the way out so they rub on the drum? _________________ Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 11:55 am Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Braukuche wrote: |
Did you adjust the rear brake shoes all the way out so they rub on the drum? |
With post-1966 VWs that have dual circuit master cylinder:
1. Shoes must be adjusted ALL the way outward so as to lock up the brake drums. Slight drag will not work. Having any shoe movement will just waste pedal pressing so as to not bleed as much as you need.
2. Start bleeding on the front axle, first on side farthest from MC. Then do same with rear axle. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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Braukuche Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 11005
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Eric&Barb wrote: |
Braukuche wrote: |
Did you adjust the rear brake shoes all the way out so they rub on the drum? |
With post-1966 VWs that have dual circuit master cylinder:
1. Shoes must be adjusted ALL the way outward so as to lock up the brake drums. Slight drag will not work. Having any shoe movement will just waste pedal pressing so as to not bleed as much as you need.
2. Start bleeding on the front axle, first on side farthest from MC. Then do same with rear axle. |
1970 Ghia has front disc. _________________ Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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c21darrel Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2009 Posts: 8211 Location: San Dimas
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24764 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2023 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: no brake pedal pressure |
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Braukuche wrote: |
1970 Ghia has front disc. |
True, but still needs the rear drums locked up. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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