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Big brake alternative: Jaguar and Eurovan combo
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Big brake alternative: Jaguar and Eurovan combo Reply with quote

Paul (Franklinstower) and I thought that rather than continuing to hijack Alika's thread, we'd start another which is specific to the front 2WD upgrade to Jaguar calipers and Eurovan rotors.

First off, let me state that I've done zero innovation on this project, and all the inspiration and road map came from Alika and his French compatriots. I've long been unhappy with stock Vanagon brakes, so I merely jumped at the opportunity to replace these sub-standard pieces with what appeared to be a solid and relatively inexpensive option.

When all is said and done, I'll have somewhere around $300 in the entire swap. This is considerably less than many other relatively bolt-on swaps.

When Alika posted up his pics of the Jaguar calipers, I went onto ebay and found a set that sounded like the same units, so I pulled the trigger = $120 w/shipping.

Alika offered to sell me his machined 144mm hubs, which were matched to fit 280mm x 24mm Zimmermann Eurovan VR6 rotors = $115 w/shipping

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


These hubs were machined with a slight chamfer on the outer edge of the hub face, so that they would fit neatly under the EV rotor hat. Additionally, they were drilled and tapped to include the retaining bolt for the rotor, which of course is completely missing on the stock hubs.

The caliper mounting holes need to be enlarged with a 37/64" drill bit and then tapped to accept the 16mm x 1.5 bolts running through the spindle uprights.

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Since the fluid inlet ports are obscured by the spindle upright, there needs to be some grinding for clearance.

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The new hydraulic fittings need to be banjo style with a 10 mm X 1. standard 37 degree flare. I found that a '96 Ford Aspire had a hose with a correct size and angle banjo fitting, though it was too short. (will update once a suitable long-term solution is found).

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once I bolted up the calipers over the rotors, I found that they weren't centered, which meant that I had to then shim them up with a couple large washers to the tune of about 4.5mm. The EV rotors have a hub face that measures 8.7mm. This caused the calipers to interfere with the rims, so I then added a 5mm wheel spacer to ensure that the rim and caliper had sufficient distance.

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Parts list:

Calipers: Jaguar part # AAU2102 for the right # AAU2103
XJ6: 1976-1987 | XJS: 1976-1996 | XJ12: 1976-1987
They are called series 3. The Calipers are 4 piston with a bore of 48 mm.

Rotors: Eurovans in the US had two different 280 x 24 mm Rotors. '92 to '96 and '96 to 2000. The difference being the overall height of the rotors. Part # 701615301F

3.8mm - 4.5mm shims under each caliper mount, in order to center on the rotor

Banjo style hydraulic hose 10 mm X 1. standard 37 degree flare--approximately 22" to 24" long.

Depending on your rims, you'll need some sort of a wheel spacer to clear to the calipers. I used 5mm

Update:
I think this swap definitely requires a minimum of 16" rims, and just want to be sure anybody contemplating this adventure factors that into their budget.

Also, please be sure to read through this thread for some improvements to the approach I've detailed in this post.
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Last edited by Zeitgeist 13 on Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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D Clymer
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice write up, Casey. I hadn't looked in on Alika's thread lately and didn't realize how quickly you'd progressed. What Jaguar model are those four piston calipers from? Who is the manufacturer? I'm not familiar with "SG". I'm assuming the Eurovan rotors are from the 99-00 12V VR6 Eurovan. IIRC, the 24V VR6 Eurovan had even larger 310mm rotors.

The only thing I'm not crazy about with this setup is that the thickness of the rotors widens the track as do the necessary spacers, but other than that the fitment looks good and the price certainly is right. Be sure to let us know how it stops.

David
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi David, these are from an '87 Jaguar XJS (V12) and are Girling units. The rotors are from the 12v VR6 Eurovan.

I'm running ET37 MB rims, so the combined spacers set my new offset at ET23.3.

I'm extremely pleased with the stopping power of these calipers. We have some seriously steep hills here in Olympia, and I've tested each and found that the brakes bite nice and firm with little fade over the stretch. So far, I've observed no downside to the swap.

Casey
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ALIKA T3
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
Nice write up, Casey. I hadn't looked in on Alika's thread lately and didn't realize how quickly you'd progressed. What Jaguar model are those four piston calipers from? Who is the manufacturer? I'm not familiar with "SG". I'm assuming the Eurovan rotors are from the 99-00 12V VR6 Eurovan. IIRC, the 24V VR6 Eurovan had even larger 310mm rotors.

The only thing I'm not crazy about with this setup is that the thickness of the rotors widens the track as do the necessary spacers, but other than that the fitment looks good and the price certainly is right. Be sure to let us know how it stops.

David


Not absolutely true,he could have get "better" offset by leaving the calipers flush on the spindle and put a 4.5mm-ish custom spacer between hub and Eurovan rotor,and the rim would have cleared the caliper Wink

Next step:the BMW booster Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was wondering when the thread would go up as I was reading through Alikas post and saw this mod too. Well done for finding a caliper which actually fits!!

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Looking at the photo above, the disc is smaller than the caliper will cope with as there is an overlap. Do you have a measurement from the disc to the outer edge of the pads so we can work out what the ideal diameter of brake disc might be?

Wasn't someone trying some 300x24mm discs from a Mercedes 500SL with these calipers?

Looking up the specs of the T4 brake disc, the ones you have used have a 55mm overall height. If you had to use a spacer to get the disc to centre to the caliper, we need a slightly less tall disc, say 50mm to bolt on?

I'm all sorted with big brakes for my vans but have passed the details of this onto Dai who is looking into fitting them to his Syncro Camper. Not sure they'll go under his 15inch Mach 5 wheels though...

MG
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McVanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew, I just had this nightmare about inboard disc brakes.

These make sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks good. saving 5 or 600$ is not a bad ideal.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SyncroGhia wrote:
I was wondering when the thread would go up as I was reading through Alikas post and saw this mod too. Well done for finding a caliper which actually fits!!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looking at the photo above, the disc is smaller than the caliper will cope with as there is an overlap. Do you have a measurement from the disc to the outer edge of the pads so we can work out what the ideal diameter of brake disc might be?

Wasn't someone trying some 300x24mm discs from a Mercedes 500SL with these calipers?

Looking up the specs of the T4 brake disc, the ones you have used have a 55mm overall height. If you had to use a spacer to get the disc to centre to the caliper, we need a slightly less tall disc, say 50mm to bolt on?

I'm all sorted with big brakes for my vans but have passed the details of this onto Dai who is looking into fitting them to his Syncro Camper. Not sure they'll go under his 15inch Mach 5 wheels though...

MG


I found that the 300mm MB discs were too big for the calipers, but I suspect discs up to 290mm might fit. The original Jag discs were 284mm. Paul is currently looking into some other disc options that would better optimize the pad to disc contact area. I think you're right that a shorter disc hat would obviate the necessity of spacing the calipers out further. Clearly there's still room for improvements in the fitment.
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Vango Conversions
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome writeup. The best part is that the caliper mounting holes are in the correct place. trying to machine the G60 callipers is a pain, these look sweet!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, do you think this will work for syncros also? No need to machine the rotors down to hubs.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:

Not absolutely true,he could have "better" offset by leaving the calipers flush on the spindle and put a 4.5mm-ish custom spacer between hub and Eurovan rotor,and the rim would have cleared the caliper Wink


Or find a Rotor with 4 - 4.5 mm more offset. I did some math, and actually the Jag rotor that matches those Calipers has exactly 4.5 mm more offset than the Eurovan rotor used. Only issue is the bolt pattern - The Jag Bolt pattern is 5 X 111.12 a mere .78 mm too narrow. but the bolt hole diameter is 11.5mm and would need to be enlarged anyway. EV holes are 16.65 which is way beyond the bolt diameter of 14mm. I am going to pick up a set of those Jag rotors from the Pick-n-Pull and see how the offset actually fits. Then you could either redrill the rotor for 5 X 112, drill the existing holes out to 16mm or just oblong the existing bolt holes. As long as a centering ring is used, oblonged or enlarged bolt holes won't matter. The Jag rotor is 284 x 24.2 which should use all the pad surface. This also would reduce total wheel offset by about 3.5 mm - The mounting flange is thicker on the Jag - 9.5 compared to EV at 8.7.

Another potential rotor option is MB 380 SEC or 500 SEC (S Class C126) Those might only need the holes opened to 14mm. They are 286 X 22.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not crazy about having to grind the upright for fitting clearance but time will tell.
For the rotors, I turned my 312mm audi rotors down to 305 and they work great. Might be worth it just for even pad wear.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a test fit on my Syncro post,it`s even easier.

I agree with the oblong holes on Jaguar rotors,it doesn`t matter.
We mount some jeep rear rotors in France that are 114.3 PCD,as long as centering is done not on the bolts,it`s good.
I don`t remember clearly ,as it`s more than 6 years we started that set up,but I kinda remember something was not matching on the Jaguar rotors,maybe it was the PCD,but maybe was something else.I can`t wait to see your experiment fit.

About grinding,I didn`t grind that much,but those spindles are over built,no way you`re gonna break the ear tabs while breaking.

Enjoy Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Jaguar Rotor

For those who don't want to grind the spindle,I'm sure you can tap the top of the caliper,the foundry has been done for it.

Those calipers are identical to some Renault Master vans,which have the fitting on the top fortunately
http://www.budweg.com/budwegweb/catalogue/caliperQueryview.asp?key=2959 Jaguar
http://www.budweg.com/budwegweb/catalogue/caliperQueryview.asp?key=6541 Renault
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the specific year/model Renault? I can find the jaguar calipers for pretty cheap on Rock auto, but can't find a Renault "master van" listed. Wouldn't surprise me if they didn't have it, but it's cheap when they do.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I could have looked at more than 1 year before writing that. Whups. Looks like a 1988 Renault Master would work?

http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=2538256

Bit more expensive at $148 each if you eat the core charge, but no grinding or drilling required.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, those are the right Calipers with the hydraulic fitting on top. Sure would make things easier. I have a spare set of Jag Calipers and i might attempt to drill and tap it for the 10 x 1mm fitting. You can have brake lines made up here: http://www.apexbrakes.com/custom.asp for pretty cheap with the right banjo and bubble flare on the other end. about $20 a piece plus shipping.

Paul
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Custom lines are worth it IMO. I found a local place that was very helpful and provided me with a very high quality product.
Ask at your local parts counter, they probably know who does them.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buildyourown wrote:
Custom lines are worth it IMO. I found a local place that was very helpful and provided me with a very high quality product.
Ask at your local parts counter, they probably know who does them.


BYO, who did you find here in the Seattle Area? I found Banjos at Brake and Clutch off Airport way, but they are too thick. I also heard Western Fluid Components might make them, but that is a rumor.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Jaguar Rotors - 284 x 24.2 - Brembo Number: 09.3825.10 center perfectly within the caliper and require no spacers between the caliper and mount. All they required to fit is enlarging the lug bolt holes on the rotors slighlty beyond 14 mm - something like 37/64" should do it.

Pictures to follow.

A couple of short vids showing the stock vanagon disc getting cut off and the hub turned down:


Link




Link


Paul
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