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Vinnems
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:04 am Post subject: For those wondering about panel adhesives; witness this |
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Here's a patch panel I made for the rusted out battery tray on my floor pan. Nothing fancy, as it's the chassis. It's attached to the other side, so the 'inside' part of the chassis. I used 3M 08115 panel adhesive. I cleaned with an angle grinder the spot it would attach on the chassis and and the piece itself. Laid the adhesive, pressed the panel on top, then but a car battery on top of the patch piece. That was a week ago.
Here's the strength of this stuff. I'm standing on it, and weigh in at about 130 pounds. All my weight on the panel (I'm on my heels in the pic) Held firm! I was scared at first because I didn't know if it would work. But then I got bold. I started stomping and jumping on the piece. It didn't budge; the adhesive held strong! No crack or anything. At first, I was scared about jumping on it because I was afraid I'd go through and cut up my legs, but later I became afraid that I was going to bend up my chassis by jumping on it!
THIS STUFF WORKS! I put it through way more then what it would go through normally. Heck, it's just going to hold the battery so all I needed was the metal not to move. |
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volksaddict
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2003
Posts: 1724
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 5:49 am Post subject: |
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Cute shoes. Orthopedic?  |
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Vinnems
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope, old school saddle shoes. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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jaymonkey
Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2005
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:29 am Post subject: |
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If he's like me, probably because he can't weld.
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1953 Kombi 23A -Sold
1969 Buggy Sold
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schell '59
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006
Posts: 1405
Location: RI
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:35 am Post subject: |
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here's the funny thing...if you throw heat to it...the panel will peel right off.
don't get me wrong i love the stuff...but,
these types of repars are killer for daily's or even low show go'er's...but in the amount of time it takes to blast the pan half...clean it,cut a new section into place,grind both areas..affix the bonding agent...CLAMP it...yes clamp it (it has to has to be compressed to get the full on affect,which he did by putting wieght on it)...grind the spooge etc....
you can cut the old pan half out,clean the pinch weld and spot weld a new pan hlaf in half the time. and the price is about the same
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Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:49 am Post subject: |
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I fitted a new battery box patch panel into my 67 square seated on 3M fender caulk. After my son wrecked the car I popped the battery box back out and sold it at a profit! 
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schell '59
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006
Posts: 1405
Location: RI
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:53 am Post subject: |
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dude i think I just tinkled!!!
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see my "gallery" for more pics other than the website. |
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Vinnems
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Why not simply properly weld in a new piece of metal rather than this glue on repair?? No matter how well it holds today, in the passage of time all glue is temporary.
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I was going to hire a welder at first until I visited a few local shops to get quotes and they recommended just using this stuff because they do (and they didn't want to work on a VW  ). Further research online showed that alot of others were using the adhesive, too. Few good threads on this very forum, matter of fact. Adhesive and the gun cost me about a third of what the cheapest welding estimate I got was.
I don't know how long it will take for this to give out, if ever. Packaged with every tube is a lifetime warranty guarantee from 3M that this adhesive will hold for the life of the vehicle. I don't know what they consider the life of the vehicle, but I'm hoping that means a very long time. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Well then, best of luck to you. What about the exposed edges and opening for water to infiltrate around the edges, inside or outside thus causing rust?
Also you've got the patch hanging below the car. It will suit you fine for now but when the day comes to sell it any savvy purchaser will immediately spot the repair and down goes the value of your restoration.
Continue on! Consider me old fashioned but I adhere to the do it right the first time and not do it over again later theory.
I am also very suspicious of adhesives and quick fixes, they are rarely good for the long term and often not even for the short term.
Lifetime warranty? Probably the lifetime of the adhesive and I'd love to see you collect on it!! I'm sure you didn't do something 100% correct so it isn't going to be 3M's fault at all.
Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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jaymonkey
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Joined: September 13, 2005
Posts: 433
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| Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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It will last 4-5 years at the most. I'm speaking from experience. I built my wifes beetle using "glue" and I wish I could weld. It doesn't look like that patch was clamped or riveted, that makes a difference and should be used in the process.
Also, using an angle grinder doesn't provide enough tooth. Should have used 80grit.
Hit it hard with a hammer, see what happens.
Don't get me wrong, I have an adhesive gun and use it often, but it doesn't replace welding....man I gotta buy a welder, I have a brother in law thats a welder, I have no reason not to weld 
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1953 Kombi 23A -Sold
1969 Buggy Sold
1975 Buggy underdevelopment
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sparkleplenty
Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008
Posts: 1110
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| Vinnems wrote: |
| Nope, old school saddle shoes. |
I think high school cheerleaders used to wear those back in the late 70's early 80's... 
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"Only when the tide goes out do you discover who is swimming naked." |
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Vinnems
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 01, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Well then, best of luck to you. What about the exposed edges and opening for water to infiltrate around the edges, inside or outside thus causing rust? |
Relax, just like any metal repair, I still have to paint it. What's great about this panel adhesive is that when you put weight on it, it flows through out the area you are gluing and comes out. So the whole area is rust protect. Edges and such that weren't hit will be covered with Masterseries.
| djkeev wrote: |
| Also you've got the patch hanging below the car. It will suit you fine for now but when the day comes to sell it any savvy purchaser will immediately spot the repair and down goes the value of your restoration. |
True, but selling the car wasn't something I planned to do. If it came to that, I would have to pay the welder to fix it up. Wasn't trying to make this a show car.
| djkeev wrote: |
Continue on! Consider me old fashioned but I adhere to the do it right the first time and not do it over again later theory.
I am also very suspicious of adhesives and quick fixes, they are rarely good for the long term and often not even for the short term. |
I was skeptical, too. Believe me! It took a lot of forum reading, a lot of visits to local shops, a good phone call to 3M (props to them for talking to an idiot like me when they have corporations to deal with), and many long nights of just wondering before I decided to use this. The tests have been done on the stuff, and it's proven to hold up. I don't look at this as a quick fix, but an alternative method.
| djkeev wrote: |
| Lifetime warranty? Probably the lifetime of the adhesive and I'd love to see you collect on it!! I'm sure you didn't do something 100% correct so it isn't going to be 3M's fault at all. |
I couldn't cash on it anyways since I'm not certified in anyway to do this, a requirement by 3M (they need repair orders and such to fill this). I was just throwing it out there to show the backing 3M has for this product. Yeah, I didn't follow things exact. Only space I really differed on was I cleaned panels with acetone before gluing since I didn't have their Wax and Grease remover (tons of acetone at work).
| jaymonkey wrote: |
| It doesn't look like that patch was clamped or riveted, that makes a difference and should be used in the process. |
I asked 3M about this because I was wondering how much weight I would need to see if I could avoid clamping. The reason you're supposed to clamp is because the adhesive has volume to it. If you just pushed it on and left it, it would dry, it would hold, but it would stick out like 20 to 50 mm from the rest of the car and look terrible. I was using it for a really unorthodox way (the 3M auto guy wondered why I just didn't fiber glass the holes  ) but it should hold pretty well.
| jaymonkey wrote: |
| Also, using an angle grinder doesn't provide enough tooth. Should have used 80grit. |
Angle grinder was over kill, he said. 3M recommends one of those stripping discs or sand paper at the least.
But please, guys, I'm not here to say throw out your welders! Welding is great, if you have the tools and the skill, go for it! I'm just trying to show there are alternatives out there that are as good. |
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marklaken
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Joined: March 19, 2004
Posts: 2416
Location: fort collins, CO
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 7:42 am Post subject: |
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I doubt you will ever convince welders that adhesives are "as good" as welding, but it is nice that these products exist for basic layman body repair.
I think you will be happy with the repair and if it fails, you now have the equipment to glue it back together - Sort of reminds me of fiberglass boat repair - just patch it, and watch (aka wait) for the failure and then repatch. I don't think it is a terrible approach to maintaining an old car.
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rlutterb
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Joined: January 10, 2006
Posts: 1393
Location: Carrollton Ohio
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 11:58 am Post subject: |
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When I see a sweet lookin' bug and walk up to give it a look, if I see that kind of patch, I wonder what else is, well, half assed. If you don't care what other think, do what you want though, its your car.
But......Welding is more manly!
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Vinnems
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2008
Posts: 1183
Location: Simi Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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My repair is pretty crappy, too, but I didn't mean this is the kind of repairs you do with it. Best way would be to flange the panel to get that really smooth look for the body (like Eastwood shows). I was doing this on the chassis, so I didn't care that it was quick and dirty. I'm not looking to win competitions.
Warning about this stuff, too. It dripped all over my garage floor when I was using it. My wife told me to get it off, so I took a screw driver and a hammer and started hitting it. It ripped up CHUNKS of concrete with it. Further reason to make sure your metal is clean when using it, because it is only as strong as the pieces you attach it to. I'll post pics when I get home, along with the screwdriver I mangled trying to break the adhesive bond on the car by using a six foot break bar. |
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dawerks
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2010
Posts: 2349
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Commercial shops use this instead of welding 90% of the time here. It's pretty powerful stuff so no need to worry.
I would use it myself, but it's too damn expensive!! Welding is soo much cheaper after the initial hit. If this stuff was cheap I would for sure use it!
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schell '59
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2006
Posts: 1405
Location: RI
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2011 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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^^yep!
at 40 bucks a tube and it takes two tubes per rear qtr on an average new car...we use spot welders instead...no welders that we have to grind the slag...fill etc.
just like factory on new cars
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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I understand the technology, I understand the appeal of the technology and I will even admit that the technology has an application.
I grew up knowing a craftsman auto body man who cut his teeth on the era of the Model T's and Model A's. In those days you had to be skilled at metal working, fabric, and woodworking. Seams on metal were smoothed with molten lead.
He never embraced Plastic fillers until the day he died.
IF you saw the photos of crumpled auto bodies he repaired to like new condition you would be astounded.
Time marches on, I am well aware of this, I just know that I won't be on board for this latest technology "advancement".
It seems to me that this adhesive technology is on a par with laminating good body panels over old body panels with rivets and welds. No good will come of it long term.
Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Anchovy
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2000
Posts: 2922
Location: San Diego, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: For those wondering about panel adhesives; witness this |
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| Vinnems wrote: |
| I'm standing on it, and weigh in at about 130 pounds. |
| Vinnems wrote: |
I was scared at first because I didn't know if it would work. But then I got bold. I started stomping and jumping on the piece[/b]. It didn't budge; the adhesive held strong! No crack or anything. At first, I was scared about jumping on it because I was afraid I'd go through and cut up my legs, but later I became afraid that I was going to bend up my chassis by jumping on it!
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1. Eat some hamburgers and buy a gun.
2. Many modern aircraft use adhesives where they used to use welds and fasteners. |
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