Removing broken studs & the ez-out conspiracy, epic

[modok]

in aluminum I have good luck with regular mig welding, especially in the upside-down position with CO2 shielding, looks like an icicle

[captnslow]

Modok, Thanks for all the information. Hopefully it'll help

[Northof49]

One refinement on the weld a nut on method is to first weld a thick washer to the stud, then weld the nut to the washer, welding at the perimeter of the nut as well as the inside. This makes the weld easier as the washer presents an easier surface to weld the remainder of the stud to. This would probably be worth trying when you have a broken ez out. This works well on steel into aluminum, as the heat shock loosens the stud. Spray some penetrant on when its still hot and it seeps into the threads.
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1958 Karmann Ghia owner

[fes]

I'm reviving this thread with the hope of a solution..but I'm not holding my breath on this one..
I've got a very high mileage T4 motor on my stand that I'm checking over for someone..
I've concluded it needs new heads,(dropped seats,) and the pistons and cylinders are badly worn,lifters are concaved,So I think we should tear into for a complete rebuild anyways..

The problem I have is when removing the heads,the top case studs unthreaded from the case, I managed to persuade the nuts off all but one..
Snap..

Sucks right? So then I proceeded to let some penetrating fluid work its way into the threads for a few days, tried vice grips..no dice..
Finally I welded two nuts on the stud to attempt a double nut trick,put some heat on the case boss for awhile and try it again
Snap! Well shit.

So...I'm not going to attempt an easy out at this point..Seeing as we should probably split the case anyways to have a looksie inside, I'm thinking Machinist at this point?
There is no aircooled specialist machinists around these parts, but I'm thinking a regular automotive millright should be able to handle this?
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'68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now)

[67rustavenger]

I'm not trying to be an ass.
But did you read the entire thread here. Just about every scenario has been presented for broken stud removal.
Since the engine is coming apart. You can grind the stud flush with the case and then center punch it dead center. Drill it out then use a torques bit and extract it.
If all else fails you can always over drill it and use a thread insert of your choice.

Good Luck.
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[fes]

Don't worry, you're not being an ass, honestly I don't usually post questions unless I've done a search or two first,I did not find anything exactly pertaining to this situation,(mostly exhaust and manifold studs).But the fact that the "weld a nut" and the other things I've done shows me this is one stubborn son of a bitch cylinder case stud..
I've bitten the bullet and cut the stud flush with the case,drilled the 9/32 hole and knocked the extractor in..I'm hitting it again with a 50/50 mix of acetone/ATF mix and going to let it sit for another day,
This engine would be coming apart if it was MINE, but it's not, and in the event he wants to sandbag it for awhile, I don't want to return it in this condition..
I'm still not holding much faith that this extractor is going to work.So then it would be Tap time, and not anything I'm going to do with a hand drill..
I'll keep ya posted
_________________
'68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now)

[modok]

Sorry I'm late.
In this case you can peen the case, weld a nut on, and hit the nut with a hammer, and heat it, all at the same time. So, to do all that at the same time you will need four hands.
12mm stud, you ideal gap can be half material thickness, can use a nut with 18 up to 24mm hole. I think you went too small with the nut.

if you have drilled a hole in it, then I suppose we've moved on past that, but you can still peen the case and heat, repeatedly. As it cools hopefully can draw oil in. If you have drilled all the way through that will very much help getting oil to the far end. Be patient, it will go eventually.

To peen probably 2lb hammer, and a chisel that is rounded to a 2-3mm radus (not sharp). You can make lines going along the outside. This expands the hole case and eventually it will be loose. Many instances you cannot do this, but this time you can!

[Cusser]

I've just drilled the stud and then tapped to 8 x 1.25mm. If some of the old stud remained, figured it would hold the new stud just fine.

You can't really tell on this pair of cylinders (which were rebuilt and now in the engine in my 1970), but I did that to all four rear-facing exhaust studs.

These were the only exhaust studs I EVER broke, and I used to disassemble these in my job as a teenager before I started fixin' them. The studs at the front of the engine did NOT break when I dismantled the whole engine over a decade later.

These heads were rebuilt to this by European Machine in Phoenix (on 24th Street).

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[esde]

Whenever I have to weld a nut onto a broken whatever it is, I keep a squirt can of oil close at hand. As soon as the weld is finished, the parts get a few good squirts. I find the heat really draws the oil into whatever was stuck, and the rapid heating/cooling cycle tends to break the stuck threads loose. So far it's never failed, though I have started a few small fires.
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modok wrote:
Bent cranks are silent but gather no moss. I mean, ah, something like that.

[modok]

I only get about 50% with weld a nut, but weld a blob is better, probably 75%
it breaks right at the weld, but the blob.....why, the blob has no sharp changes in section

[[email protected]]

left hand drill bits are vastly under-rated for jobs like this, FWIW.
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[raygreenwood]

Ok.....too late for this....but may help someone else.....when removing type 4 head studs.

If you get to the point that it requires so much force to remove a head nut.....that it literally threatens to strip the nut....or does strip the nut....or breaks the stud......

Usually the stud snaps just below the upper/outer thread section. If the outer nut shears the corners....cut the nut off. Get the heads and cylinders off.

The point I am getting to.....is that about 9 out of 10 times the stud snaps off with mlst of its length left attached to the case.

And....I cannot say this for sure about type 1....but type 4 head studs are very high tensile....and EXTREMELY twisty. ....and slightly brittle.
So.....just trying to weld on a nut to the end....even a double nut.....will allow so much actual twist to that long stud as you try to break it loose......that you will snap it 99% of the time.

The object is to do one of two things....and these work. Either weld an oversized nut that slips down over the shaft....down right near the case...so your torque is not twisting the shaft of the stud....but is just operating on a short length of steel at the bottom.

The better way I have found.....is to take a large pair of vise grips...clamp it tight down low or midway...tack weld the pliers to the stud.....then weld a nut on the outer end. Put your wrench on the outer end....and apply twisting force to BOTH the vise grips and the wrench. This applys force along the stud instead of twisting the entire stud from end to end which invariably fractures it.

Try it next time. It works.Ray

[atticus finch]

on flush broken studs or bolts& especially if they're broken off just a hair above the hole. I weld a washer onto them first then weld a nut onto that.
It's easier to accurately locate & weld a washer onto a broken fastener than welding inside a nut. Once the washer is welded on it provides a wider surface to weld a nut onto.
Quite often the heat from the welding helps loosen the stuck fastener.

Broken screw extractors? I use an ordinary masonry bit to drill them out.
I use engine oil to help keep things cool & resharpen the bit with a bench grinder if needed.

[fes]

Ok, Here's how I made out, and thanks for the replies..
I hammered the EZ out extractor, put some heat on it, peened the stud around it slightly with a cold chisel and ball peen hammer, peened the boss slightly too and hit with some penetrating mixture and left it for the night.

This afternoon, tried it and would not budge..

Put some more acetone/ATF mix,put some heat on and had a beer and watched the torch..

I tried it again, no dice, I was afraid of twisting the extractor off and breaking it so I moved the heat further away from the stud and heated the case itself, with the idea of expanding the boss and not the stud itself..

MOVEMENT! This came about after heating and dribbling penetrating fluid (kind of boiling it in the threads)
Carefully moving it back and forth, the stubborn whore gave way..

Life's small victories
Thanks Samba folk
-Matt
_________________
'68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now)

[67rustavenger]

Excellent good job.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!

There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!

[Cusser]

Nice job, Matt.

I always figured with EZ outs that if the stud/bolt was so tight that it broke, not a great chance of an EZ out getting it out without outside help such as heat or drilling it out.

Now, when you you break a bolt while tightening, then there's not much force on the broken part so then EZ outs work easier, as do left-hand drill bits.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

[modok]

Sweet! That's just like one I did a while back. My friend got a different tow truck with a Mercedes engine, and he could not change the oil. Says 55 torx is too small but 60 is too large, so I ground a 60 down to a 57, and then he says it won't budge. So I give it a try. Two foot breaker, I'm hammering the torx in, hammering on the side of it, have the torch on it (using four hands?) and THREE guys are standing in front of the truck just watching my legs twitch. For some reason I find that annoying. I keep at it probably 15 minutes, and eventually the audience wanders off. Finally I hear it CLICK and turn. So I crawl back out of there, and I walk up to my friend with a very GRAVE look on my face and say "sure is stuck, but it can be fixed somehow, how much is it worth to you?"
He said 40 bucks. I said how "much you got on you?" 19$
Ok, I'll take 19$, I already got it out.

[fes]

Yeah, I didn't have much faith in the EZ out either, ( had sheared one off with a broken exhaust stud on a head)
I figured if I had to apply much more than 40-50 foot pounds it wasn't going to turn out well...
Amazing how clean the rest of the threads are compared to the trouble first few.. Doesn't take much to ruin yer day does it? ..
And yes..these are very high tensile steel studs, cobalt bit is a must
_________________
'68 Campmobile-Pedro
'15 Golf-Stella Blau
'56 Oval-The Turd (for now)

[mark tucker]

I love using start drive instead of ezouts for most situations. butt first!!! wack the crap out of the studs.if a nut is stuck if ypou can get a nut buster to it do that first. or if possiable a 1/16 drill drilled into the nut to releave a little pressure.Ive never seen anything vw that was hard so it should drill eazy...should. even vice grips used to squeezze the flats so the peneternt can seep in may help. Ive broken a very few ezouts. but Ive removed oh so many that were brought to me, dont know why somany people brought thier effed up stuff to me to fix....glad I no longer do it....I hope.

[theastronaut]

About 8 years ago I bought a forged/counterweighted 69mm crank and took the plugs out to clean the oil passages. Well, all except one plug. It stripped, so I drilled it and since dad had them (and I had no experience with them) I thought I'd use a twist/tapered EZ out to remove the plug. Bad idea, it broke off in the plug. I never could get it out and a few machine shops didn't want to touch it so it's sat on the shelf since.

Tonight I got it out and took another look at it and decided to try grinding away as much of the plug as I could until I got down the the easy out. This took pressure off the walls of the plug and also off the sides of the easy out, allowing me to take a punch and knock the broken easy out through the hole I had drilled. I then ground the remaining plug opening to snugly fit a torx bit, tapped the torx bit in, and was able to back out the remains of the plug.

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