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honeybus
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Pulling distributor wires & changes in RPM Reply with quote

I was thinking that if I pulled one of the four ignition wires from the top of the distributor while the bus was at op temp and running at idle,

(1978 - 2.0 FI standard trans, vacuum at 900 RPM = 17 in/hg, timing 7.5 BTDC, distributor vacuum line still attached, dwell 52)

that the idle would drop - noticeably -

With an attached digital tachometer that reads thousands - hundreds - tens (i.e., 2320, 2330, 2340 etc) I did not see any -noticeable- reduction in RPM.

Stupid question #1 -> If the idle RPM was 900, and one spark plug ware was pulled, should I see an RPM drop to 800, or even lower? <- Stupid question #1.

BTW, years ago, when resurrecting a 1976 bus (barn find) from a 6 year hibernation, I used this technique to discover that 2 of the 4 FIs were not functional. Still, running on only 2 cylinders, the '76 bus was able to maintain a top cruising speed of 35 MPH (on level ground at seal level + 200 ft).

Stupid question #2 -> So, maybe I should do a road test on a hill (positive incline; i,\.e., going UP the hill) to see the effects of pulling each of the distributor/spark plug/ignition wires? <- Stupid question #2

Thanks

Barry
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

You should notice a drop, I've never used a tach to gauge the drop but it's noticeable, the engine usually shakes as well. Hold the wire near the cap as it idles and put it back in the hole (doesn't have to push in tight to work), and see if you notice a difference in or out.
The road test is overkill, but if it makes you feel better do it for the sake of science Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:22 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Honeybus,try turning on all your lights and fans,so the alt puts a load on the engine,then you may notice the drop more.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Qualify your rpm gauge. Hook it up to another vehicle and test.

If each cylinder is contributing an equal amount of power. You should see a drop of close to 225 rpm.

If there was no drop on any of the cylinders, the engine would not be able to run.
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furgo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

On my bus oil is noticeably leaking from underneath the (rusty) valve covers, so I'm about to replace them, along with new gaskets and retaining clips.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Stupid questions (note I've got hydraulic lifters, if that is relevant here):

Where is the oil leaking from the valve covers coming from? Is it the pistons pushing it out when the exhaust valves are open? Or does it come from the pushrod tubes?
Is there a return path for that oil to go back to the sump? I.e. why does it stay behind the valve covers and ultimately leak?
I've noticed that there is no difference between right and left valve covers, as they all seem to be part #021 101 471. There is a bit that protrudes at one of the corners with something that resembles a mounting hole. I was wondering what its purpose is and why it is not mirrored on left/right valve covers.

Thanks!
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Last edited by furgo on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

furgo wrote:
On my bus oil is noticeably leaking from underneath the (rusty) valve covers, so I'm about to replace them, along with new gaskets and retaining clips.

Stupid questions (note I've got hydraulic lifters, if that is relevant here):

Where is the oil leaking from the valve covers coming from? Is it the pistons pushing it out when the exhaust valves are open? Or does it come from the pushrod tubes?
Is there a return path for that oil to go back to the sump? I.e. why does it stay behind the valve covers and ultimately leak?
I've noticed that there is no difference between right and left valve covers, as they all seem to be part #021 101 471. There is a bit that protrudes at one of the corners with something that resembles a mounting hole. I was wondering what its purpose is and why it is not mirrored on left/right valve covers.

Thanks!


The oil is in the valve covers to lubricate the rocker assemblies and to a minor extent the valve guides. It feeds from the oil galleys, to the lifters, to the pushrods, to the rockers, and then returns to the sump through the pushrod tubes. On Type 1 engines (and maybe Type 4 engines as well) oil will tend to fill the one rocker box at higher rpms because of wash from the crankshaft.

The hole in the cover is one of VW mysteries, it is probably used to hang the cover for painting and drying. For what ever reason the covers tend to work a bit better when the VW insignia is installed upside down. VW even did it this way on the unmolested factory engines I have seen.

It can be hard to get the gasket to stay in place during installation and if you use cheap gaskets they will shrink with time and leak. Good quality gasket will last a very long time without leaking.
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furgo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Perfect, thanks a lot for the answers!
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:41 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Wild said most of it. But your covers are probably okay. Hardly ever seen one rusted thru. Just clean them good. I like to use a fast drying gasket cement to fasten the gaskets securely to the cover. Keep the cover in place with one hand, then use a small flat 90 degree pry bar (like carpenters use) to LIFT the bail and move it into the center relief.
If it so happens that you can only find cork gaskets and they have shrunk, let them swim in a hot water bath for 1/4-1/2 hour. They will swell. Monitor them, tho, you can swell them too much. Most new gaskets use rubber /cork mix and do not have this problem.
Al
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furgo
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:21 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Hey Al,

Thanks a lot for the reply.

Alan Brase wrote:
Wild said most of it. But your covers are probably okay. Hardly ever seen one rusted thru. Just clean them good. I like to use a fast drying gasket cement to fasten the gaskets securely to the cover. Keep the cover in place with one hand, then use a small flat 90 degree pry bar (like carpenters use) to LIFT the bail and move it into the center relief.


Perfect, that's more or less what I was planning to do. I've got a tube of Hylomar M that I'm intending to put on the valve cover side. I've also read somewhere that a one-off bit of grease on the outside of the covers helps sliding the retaining clip to secure them.

I agree that the covers are probably not rusted through. Once I remove the rust, the outside will probably be badly pitted and won't look that good once repainted (mostly cosmetic, though). My only worry would be that the pitting extends to the cover's contact surface with the gasket, which will no longer be flat (I've seen other covers with this issue).

I'm planning a trip in a few days, so as mentioned, I ordered new covers, gaskets and retaining clips to be able to drive without losing that much oil. Once we're back, I'll then look at whether it's worth restoring the original covers.

Alan Brase wrote:
If it so happens that you can only find cork gaskets and they have shrunk, let them swim in a hot water bath for 1/4-1/2 hour. They will swell. Monitor them, tho, you can swell them too much. Most new gaskets use rubber /cork mix and do not have this problem.


Indeed, I've got new rubber/cork gaskets, so I should be fine I guess. One thing I do not quite agree with is the swelling of cork gaskets, though. Just as a sponge, the cork will absorb the water and expand, but in time it will be released again, with the result of a shrunken gasket and trapped humidity contributing to rust on the valve contact surface.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Shrunken cork gaskets might well be a thing of the past. But pure cork gaskets were all there were up til about 20 years ago. They were the right size when made and had moisture in them, They dried out and got smaller. Once cinched down, they were good till the parts got removed. New cork/ rubber gaskets one can remove the covers many times if the gasket only sticks to one side. With solid lifters, this is pretty handy, because dealing with the gaskets is near as much work as adjusting the valves.
Trust me, the inside of your covers are not rusty. Unless your motor was in a flood.
But your mileage may vary.
Let us know what you discover.
Al
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furgo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Ok, thanks. Will report back once I've done the replacement.

Here's another simple question with a bit of a long intro.

I've got a dipstick oil temperature sensor that I'd like to replace. Even though I've filed the oil level marks on the dipstick sensor, it's always a bit of a pain to check the level and get access to the engine with the two cables hanging from the ceiling.

After doing some research, it seems there are three common locations to measure the oil temperature:

1. Oil level dipstick (sump)
2. Taco plate + wind deflector (inspection hole, sump)
3. Pressure relief valve

I realize that 2. (taco plate) was the stock location Porsche used, but I've given up trying to find an original taco plate + cover + cable holders. So I'm going for 3. (pressure relief valve). I'm also aware that it's not the best spot for circulation, etc, but I've also been watching a myriad of oppinions (stress on oppinions, not data) that vary wildly from: a) readings are mostly the same at the 3 locations b) you'll never get a good reading at 3. c) 1. and 3. show similar readings.

So I'll bite the bullet and gather the data myself. Given that I've got a spare gauge and the dipstick is still installed, I could even compare the readings of the two at the same time for a while. I've gotten used to the dipstick temp readings, so if the pressure relief valve sensor ones are similar, I'll be happy.

All this is to clearly say that I'm not looking for recommendations on where and which oil temp sensor to use, I've already done the research, compared pros and cons and made the decision.

My question is rather on installation. I did an oil change a couple of months ago, but I'd like to install the sensor now rather than waiting for the next oil change.

If I understand it correctly, the pressure relief valve and its passage are slightly raised in comparison to the sump.

Am I correct to assume that if I leave the bus parked overnight most of the oil will be back to the sump and if I remove the pressure relief valve's big screw in the morning, just a minimal amount of oil will be lost from the valve's opening? I.e. as opposed to the whole oil contents being spilled out by gravity.

(Again, my bus has hydraulic lifters and it's a single oil pressure relief valve system, if that is relevant to the answer)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:03 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

you're missing # 4 ,the oil pressure switch location.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

I need to make a dip stick tube for the 010 a/t. What is the size of the threaded male bushing that threads into the atf pan?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:39 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

@furgo have you seen these? Not original, but looks nice and in the UK.

Not sure what you mean about wire holder and cover. My bus came to me with a temp sensor tapped into the original taco plate. I've since re-wired it along the mustache bar up into the engine compartment (then on to the dash).

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1251577
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

BayCreamPuff wrote:
@furgo have you seen these? Not original, but looks nice and in the UK.


Thanks, I'll have a closer look.

BayCreamPuff wrote:
Not sure what you mean about wire holder and cover.


Generally the repros are a round metal plate with a threaded hole across their center for the sensor. The connector then protrudes from the bottom of the bus.

The Porsche part was a round plate with a housing of sorts for the sensor, which is threaded diagonally and enclosed completely by it. In addition, it has a cover on top that (in theory) deflects the wind that would otherwise cool down the sensor and affect readings. It also protects it from anything coming from the floor.

The wire holder is simply a bit of metal that is attached to the cover (sorry, I had mentioned it as a separate part as it was in my head, but got corrected once I saw the picture again) to secure the wires coming out of the sensor.

Here's a pic of the cover plate only:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And a detail of how the wire is routed:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ratwell has more pictures of the whole assembly on his site: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/VDOGauges.html#new

When I looked at all this a while ago, I wasn't too convinced by the repros I had seen and I eventually gave up tracking the Porsche parts.

Sometimes you also find them in the US, but more often than not, missing the wind deflection cover - e.g. http://www.ebay.de/itm/USED-Porsche-914-4-1970-76-...3038733842
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Ok, read alot of threads.

This is for a middle 2/3 seat in my 70 deluxe.

I figured out the clamps for the middle are different. I was given 3 clamps and i believe 1 is useable. See pict, the one (bottom) that has the nubbin or key in the curve area seems to match up to the middle seat as the rails have a hole for it to insert into.

For a 70 should all 6 clamps have this protrusion or key? I know the threaded bolt is the longer variation.

Im looking at clamps, plates and bolts and nuts from wolfsburgwest as they seem quality and the classified sellers think they are made of gold.

Thanks for the info


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

Those look like middle clamps from here, the ones without the nubs are for a split bus but work the same. VW added the nubs in 68, likely to make it impossible to install the seat in the wrong position and comply with some new seatbelt law, either holds down the seat the same if you use a little common sense.
Careful with the new ones, unless things have changed the kit WW and other sellers offer includes cast aluminum clamps, they are nowhere near as strong as the forged tool steel clamps that VW used and could let the seat loose in a horrific crash. It's terrifying enough getting pounded by whatever hits you, a middle seat flying around inside will do damage from many more angles and could change the outcome permanently.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Those look like middle clamps from here, the ones without the nubs are for a split bus but work the same. VW added the nubs in 68, likely to make it impossible to install the seat in the wrong position and comply with some new seatbelt law, either holds down the seat the same if you use a little common sense.
Careful with the new ones, unless things have changed the kit WW and other sellers offer includes cast aluminum clamps, they are nowhere near as strong as the forged tool steel clamps that VW used and could let the seat loose in a horrific crash. It's terrifying enough getting pounded by whatever hits you, a middle seat flying around inside will do damage from many more angles and could change the outcome permanently.


Great, i need 3 more then. I can go original for the clamps and bolts and get the plates from ww.

Im guessing ill have to buy the center belts from ww. Ill put a wtb for them to see what i get

Thanks again.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

RBurn wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Those look like middle clamps from here, the ones without the nubs are for a split bus but work the same. VW added the nubs in 68, likely to make it impossible to install the seat in the wrong position and comply with some new seatbelt law, either holds down the seat the same if you use a little common sense.
Careful with the new ones, unless things have changed the kit WW and other sellers offer includes cast aluminum clamps, they are nowhere near as strong as the forged tool steel clamps that VW used and could let the seat loose in a horrific crash. It's terrifying enough getting pounded by whatever hits you, a middle seat flying around inside will do damage from many more angles and could change the outcome permanently.


Great, i need 3 more then. I can go original for the clamps and bolts and get the plates from ww.

Im guessing ill have to buy the center belts from ww. Ill put a wtb for them to see what i get

Thanks again.

The plates that come in the WW kit are useable, the bolts are somewhat OK as well but of questionable grade. If you are using a 68-72 floor mat with the rectangular cutouts you need the plates, 73+ mats with the long slot so the seat sits directly against the floor don't need the plates.

The OG belts are hard to find and challenging for passengers to use, the WW belts are pretty good and easier buckle and adjust, I run them in my daily driver.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Re: The Stupid Question Thread Reply with quote

I working up to this as i know one window leaks now so i keep rag to catch and water.

This is for a 70 deluxe bus

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ive read many threads and this one seems cover removing the wing window after the main window is taken out

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53908&start=0

Then i saw the utube video that makes it look pretty simple.
https://youtu.be/Uhfqt4yDias

I was reading about twisting tabs etc and the such, what tabs are being talked about. Also about removing a rivet... is this rivet need to be taken out to replace the rubber?

Seems
#1 remove main window, reseal
#2 remove vent window, reseal
#3 install vent window
#4 install main window.

Is this the order? Im pretty sure im rust free on the frames..
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