Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Land speed car chassis design thoughts
Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Vintage Speed Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like some of the stability problems on the pollywog were related to the FWD:
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,1168.0.html



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
earthquake
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
earthquake is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom
I was thinking about the 4Th wheel being lightly sprung so it would just touch the salt but I was hoping to have the majority of the brakes in the rear so I could run spindle mounts in the front. I think tring to brake through tandem mounts in the rear would not offer sufficient braking power in the case of chute failure. I guess I will have to run front brakes.
Theres no way I would try to use rear steer, I hate to drive fork lifts.

Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
TomSimon
Samba Member


Joined: January 13, 2004
Posts: 749

TomSimon is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthquake wrote:
Unkl Ian
That is a neat Idea and brings up a question in my mind, If a car has four wheels do they all have to touch the ground? If you built a car with tandem wheels in the rear and the rear most tire just barely touched the ground would it be legal?


Hi Casey, the answer to that is 'yes', I know of 2 cars that had a 'rules wheel' and 3 others that were doing the work. The rules wheel is usually lightly sprung, so it barely dances across the salt when the car is up so speed, on one design I looked at, the airflow drove a wedge under the tire, forcing it up off the slat, while the other tandem wheel did the work.

Fwd would be a great way to go if you can get it figured out. I'm no expert but from what I've seen, there are a bunch of ways to do it wrong, and a few ways to do it right. Whatever you do, stay away from rear-steering Twisted Evil Embarassed Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

36hplandspeedracer wrote:


The Summers Brothers tried FWD and an inline tandem rear wheel system from 62-63 with a single Hemi engined streamliner. The car went very fast(302) but was ill handling.




Traction on salt, is only slightly better than sand, so wheel spin is constant on faster cars. If you had a bunch of power, with inline drive wheels,
the rooster tail from the front wheel would reduce traction to the second wheel. Which might explain ill handling on some earlier efforts.

Another possibility, would be to run the tires side by side, like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

36hplandspeedracer wrote:


The Summers Brothers tried FWD and an inline tandem rear wheel system from 62-63 with a single Hemi engined streamliner. The car went very fast(302) but was ill handling.



"Handling" also changes with speed and aerodynamic lift/downforce.
A design that is stable around 150, might not be at over 300 mph.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unkl Ian wrote:

Then use your narrowed beam on front, with a nose
like this one by Tom Hanna:



http://www.myrideisme.com/Blog/bonneville-baddest-race-cars-4/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
36hplandspeedracer
Samba Member


Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Ivins, Utah
36hplandspeedracer is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthquake wrote:
Unkl Ian
That is a neat Idea and brings up a question in my mind, If a car has four wheels do they all have to touch the ground? If you built a car with tandem wheels in the rear and the rear most tire just barely touched the ground would it be legal? hmmm.

Casey


Hi Casey, here are some historical pics of old tandem rear wheel racers.

The Summers Brothers tried FWD and an inline tandem rear wheel system from 62-63 with a single Hemi engined streamliner. The car went very fast(302) but was ill handling. This car may have encouraged the SCTA/BNI to put restrictions on this design. Before constructing a car to this configuration, I would reccommend you contact the SCTA safety inspectors for their guidance. The next year the Summers Brothers built a 409 mph four wheel streamliner called the Goldenrod with a 'normal' four wheel design.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The Summers Brothers 'Polywog' in 1962 by Burly Burlile


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Phil Knights SCAT liner in 1971 by Alex Tremulis

Phil Knight and SCAT built this VW powered FWD streamliner in 1971 featuring tandem rear wheels. Again, ill handling doomed the venture.

In the late 80's and early 90's, Al Teague built a single Hemi powered streamliner with a very narrow, driven rear track, and staggered front wheels for steering. This car was extremely successful and saw a top speed of over 432 miles per hour. The photo below shows a similar staggered system currently be used by a smaller streamliner. It also shows the aluminum wheel/tire combo some folks run due to limited availability of ultra high speed rubber tires.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Staggered front wheel steering-2010-car unknown by Burly Burlile

Below is a link to the BEST site for viewing the whole of the Bonneville and land speed racing world. It is free, called Land Racing.Com and everyone should sign up for this one. Go to the forum called ' Old Bonneville Pictures ' for a photo montage that does not quit. Currently it is at 117 pages and features more photos of the Polywog and Al Teagues liner. Not a lot of VW images, most are of older Bonneville racers.


http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5202.0.html

Enjoy....................

Burly
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
earthquake
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
earthquake is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK
So the tire will just barely touch the ground, I'm really thinking about the chain drive off the drive flange on the transaxle idea. It would allow fairly quick gear ratio changes, it would save some weight and the tear drop shaped body would be pretty smooth. It would not be too hard to build a swing arm rear suspension with a chain drive set up and coil over shocks, OK Now you have me thinking.

Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kent Fuller's Streamliner is shown in this video by Ron Covell:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The expensive looking wheels, are forged Aluminum space saver spare wheels, from late model Mustangs. Very round and true.

I forget how the rear wheels are suspended, but they are driven by chains connected to each side of a super narrow Ford rear end.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting question. The rules for Streamliners require
at least 4 wheels, and at least 2 of them must be covered.
The 4 wheels do not have to be arranged in a rectangular configuration.

So it sounds like having one wheel off the ground MIGHT
be legal, but I doubt you would get it past the Tech guys.



Going with the rear tires inline, allows you to create a "tear drop" shape, wider on front, tapering to a point on back. Then the air can close in behind the car at speed, creating less drag. Rolling resistance isn't as important as aerodynamic drag, as speed increases. Drag increases at the square of speed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
earthquake
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
earthquake is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unkl Ian
That is a neat Idea and brings up a question in my mind, If a car has four wheels do they all have to touch the ground? If you built a car with tandem wheels in the rear and the rear most tire just barely touched the ground would it be legal? hmmm.

Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

earthquake wrote:
Unki Tan
Thats a beautiful car but there no way I have the kind of cash to build anything like that.



Turn that car around, so the inline wheels are on back.
Chain drive off of a VW/Posche transaxle.
Then use your narrowed beam on front, with a nose
like this one by Tom Hanna:
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j64/sodas38/Hot%20Rod%20Pics/IMG_2426.jpg

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j64/sodas38/Hot%20Rod%20Pics/IMG_2431.jpg

The narrow tail will reduce the drag considerably.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
earthquake
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
earthquake is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unki Ian
Thats a beautiful car but there no way I have the kind of cash to build anything like that.

Slalombuggy
I just hope I can get 75 hp out of my motors on my budget.


Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]


Last edited by earthquake on Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
slalombuggy
Samba Member


Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9131
Location: Canada
slalombuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really need the Kenny Dettwiler (sp) 1200hp Chrysler 4 banger to put in your car. And yes it was totally designed in CAD by an aerospace engineer, with computer simulations and then tunnel tested. I think they ran 420s a couple of years ago.

brad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



These guys have spent a ton of cash over the last few years,
so I'm guessing they have tested this design in a wind tunnel,
or done computer simulations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
earthquake
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
earthquake is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I had a little free time on the water-jet today so I made the mounting plates for my front beam
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I had a small miscalculation on the top as it hits the upper tube of the beam. I'm just going to use a hole saw and cut out a half round notch to clear the tube. these will be welded to the front of the frame and will allow about 15° of caster adjustment, I may weld them on with about 5° built in.

Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
slalombuggy
Samba Member


Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9131
Location: Canada
slalombuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd go with a flat bottom. The more YOU can control the air flow the better. As for the bowling pin shape. Works good at supersonic speeds, but can't see much need for it at sub-750 Very Happy

I found a great tech article online discussing aerodynamcis, virtual and wind tunnel testing, I'll see if I can find a link and post it for you.

brad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
earthquake
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2008
Posts: 3984
Location: SANDY VALLEY, NEVADA
earthquake is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK
Since I'm still in the design stage of my car [can't afford to do much more] I'm working on a body shape, I am thinking about a modified "bowling pin'"shape with a tapered tail. Has this been done before? Will the wasp waist hurt aerodynamics? It will be flat on top except for the wind screen in front of the roll cage that will be blended in to the body. does this sound like it will work, should it be flat bottomed or left open underneath? Thanks for any help.

Casey
_________________
74 CLASS 11 LOOK-A-LIKE
69 DUNE BUGGY
79 INTERNATIONAL SCOUT II
05 SCION XB SERIES RELEASE 2[#437]
95 Chevy C3500 dually
98 Ford E150
Link to Kelly J. Nolte 3/20/53 - 11/6/08
https://time-zonelabs.blogspot.com/p/about-kelly.html
DEATH TO CHINGERS!
[From a military recruitment poster in the novel "The Stainless Steel Rat" By Harry Harrison]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Unkl Ian
Samba Member


Joined: September 11, 2008
Posts: 288
Location: Near Toronto
Unkl Ian is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with trying to use a convention VW or Porsche rear end is
the difficulty in changing drive ratios, and the range of available ratios.


As far as layout, look at the fast cars.
http://speeddemon.us/
http://bonnevillestreamliner.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
slalombuggy
Samba Member


Joined: July 17, 2010
Posts: 9131
Location: Canada
slalombuggy is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Something with a nose like this?

brad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vintage Speed All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.