Opinions on lowering while keeping a decent ride

[Finallyback65]

Ok I know this has been done to death! But I want to know feed back on what people would do to their own rides if they were to start fresh. I recently tore into my 65. I want a nice height i am using shocks, i will upgrade to disc brakes in the very near future. I am using stock smooth wheels. Being a welder fabricator for 10 plus years i dont mind cutting a beam myself. I know plenty of you great volks folks out there have lowered a plenty. Just curious your best experiance. Which adjuster styles, spindles mfgs. All that info is appreciated thanks.

[OhChit]

I have lowered several of my own bugs. And can give you some wise advise.. Determine What ride height you are seeking? If you decide on an adjustable Beam, and do Drop Spindles your going to be low... Add to that modern Lower profile tires and your be really Low.. This actually can become a problem as the Beam may not have enough upwards adjustment to raise the fronend to your desired ride height? Yea Low is cool but you need some up and down travel for road bounce, full tank of fuel, and any other weight factors added to the ride, passenger etc. Air rides are cool too, and adjustable but can become pricy and sometimes tricky to adjust and inflate to your desired needs. Although the newer stuff has taken many of the problems out of the bags.
Recently I fought a frontend suspension problem on a Bug that I bought that had a narrowed Beam installed when I bought the project. This car drove me nuts for months on end. It just had no front suspension to it. Reguardless where I adjusted the beam to the results were the same. What would happen is the beam would travel downwards but for some strange reason that I couldn't figure out, it wouldn't return to it's normal ride height. BTW.. You should check your suspension travel with your shocks removed.. SHOCKS do NOTHING for your Ride other then stop the car from continuing to bounce / soften upwards, and downwards travel. Let the Torsion Springs in the Beam do the job they were designed for. Many guys use too stiff of a shock, resulting in a hard hitting non-shock asorbing frontend. You want a soft upwards, and downwards movement maybe 2-3" each way. Oh-ooooo back to the problem that I found with the Beam. I finially decided to buy a factory made Norrowed, and adjustable Beam.. WOW, once installed I quickly realized the problem I was fighting. The Beam that was on the car was home made, or maybe even shop made. But Apperently the problem was that my Torsion Arms were binding in the Beam, but only when wheels were on the ground. Apperently the Beam was slightly out of alinement, nothing that could be seen by the eye, but it was out and Binding.
My point here is that with these Factory Beams so reasonably priced it's really not worth the venture to tackle it ourselves, when you do the math on the items that your need to build your own your quickly see the comparison. Not only is it a time saver, but one major less headace, plus your have a warrenty, and your right there in the heart of VW heaven so for you, you could probably just walk into a shop and walk out with your new Beam and not have to deal with the heavy postage the rest of us would have to add to our purchase price. Plus your still have your orginal Beam for a spare, etc.
Rear Suspension is adjusted by the rear Torsion Bars and Indexing, Heavier Bars, etc. All depends on what you wish to acheive. On a larger engine car I normally run 26mm Rear Torsion Bars set to a lowered ride height with Liminting Straps, etc. For me this setup has proven to be a great combination for Street / Strip cars.
Good Luck...

..
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Fast Cars, and Slow Women Makes me DrooL.

[smitty24]

the previous poster made some very good points. I have used many different setups from stock to narrowed shockless. the best handling was with my current setup. the thing about lowering vws is that you have handling, and you have looks. you want something in between. If you want all around performance that has the ability to upgrade, something with shocks is preferred, 2-4" narrow. for good drop but room to raise or go slightly lower, here is what I would do and did to my own car=
2" CB beam (needle bearings), sway bar, drop spindles, 155/60 165/60 or 145/65 tires up front, lowered oil shocks or light gas, caster shims. Rear should be one outer notch, lowered GR2 or similar, camber compensator from CB. You can also use Z plates but they might put you a little too low. My car does 80-90 with this setup and handles NICE! this is not just driving on some flat empty highway, this is driving through mountain passes state to state- hard.
You will get a lot of conflicting opinion about lowering and shocks, but from my own cars and experimenting, they ride the best and handle the best with a minor narrowed beam with shocks and a sway bar= necessary if you desire any kind of performance handling. These cars are slow enough and get scary if built carelessly. Performance mods are nice! I used to love the tucked and hovering on the road look, but the older I get and all the extra BS you deal with, slightly higher up makes a big difference. Your style of driving each day and where you live should help have a say on what you decide.

[drscope]

Drop spindles give you 2-1/2 inches of drop while retaining that nice ride.

If that's not enough for you, then a pie cut to the frame head will give you some more.

It's not adjustable, (but neither is an adjustable beam for practicle purposes) but it retains the full suspension travel and keeps the nice ride.

Just about anything other then drop spindles limits suspension travel and the more you go, the worse the ride gets.
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Mother Nature is a Mean Evil Bitch!

[Finallyback65]

Wow! Thats pretty impresive how fast i got a response! Well i figured i would do it myself. Most of my work entails tolerances of .005 in and less for National Government Labs. But i wont let my bigass head get in the way! So CB beam it is. Im probally going to only do the 2 in. I really want to keep my shocks. I was trying to be cheap but it doesnt sound like its worth it. I am going to use modern tires so i will stay away from spindles.
Who then makes a good disc brake kit that wont kill my pocketbook. Somebody in another post talked about airkewld, but holycow 2k is out of my league. I guessin you will say CB. They seem to be the goto folks. By the way thanks for all the advice!

[smitty24]

the CB 2" is what I recommend to everyone- not only because that is the one I run but is is USA made and well built with no drama. the needle bearings are nice and they use Delrin for the deeper inner bearings. I have the best handling with this beam, combined with their in house sway bar and compensator. It is kind of a package deal, or at least should be. I would recommend you use CB disc brakes- as well as their drop spindles. this is a perfect setup for stock wheels. you need the spindles for it to work better. on my setup, the 165/60 front tires and the spindles do most the work. the beam just brings it in a bit.

please ignore the heinous paint on the first- all in the name of science! This shows what can be done. In these pictures, the beam is only at the 3/4 mark (from the top). this can go up a couple inches or down about 2-3 more. In a sense, my tires and the spindles are doing 80% of the drop. I do not rub and have good suspension travel, even with a couple passengers. Spindles are a necessity for geometry and getting you away from the headlight buckets. my car is currently 1"-1 3/4" higher up now, due to the rough roads in Utah.

this kit is well worth the money.
http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1140

[Finallyback65]

I really like the way your bug sits. I would have to carry some passengers. 2 kids and a wife. Carshow weekends! I was just on CBs website and have a loaded shopping cart! I guess since i get 3 paychecks this month i should just go for the lowered spindle and brake kit! I might have to check with the wife first. What shocks are you running? Kyb im guessing?

[smitty24]

yes, you can raise the front an inch from where I sit and still look good and ride well with passengers. The car handled better when it was higher in the rear than the first picture. Rear end shocks are easy- KYB GR2. Fronts get a little difficult if you dont know where to find them. You want OIL filled LOWERED on the front if you use a beam and spindles. you can get away with other stuff but I usually use lowered shocks on anything more than 3". My oil shocks are from Napa-- used on the Barndoor buses from the 50's. they come very short- but are a quality USA made product- Monroe makes the exact same shock but the Napa version is much cheaper. I paid about $30 for two shocks. they work much better than the empis.

do you know all the parts you need for the complete job?

[Finallyback65]

I think i do. Beam, torsion bars, Tierods, castershims, longer bolts, shocks, lowered spindle disc brake kit. I will also add braided stainless brake lines, new king and link pins and tires. I think that does the front. Am i missing anything?

[johnR]

It would be great if CB offered a front end kit with their 2" narrowed beam with torsion leaves and adjusters set 50/50 (2" up, 2" down to fine tune the height), reconditioned trailing arms with new ball joints, dropped spindles, and choice of disc kit, all pre-assembled. Just bolt it on, grease it up, hook up the brake lines, and go.

[smitty24]

[Finallyback65]

Heard that johnR! Smitty i forgot to mention swaybar. Do i need to do anything to upgrade to the new style tierod ends? Can i just by the whole assy or just the ends? Also do i need to change the dampner to do that. I planned on buying a new one anyways. Why not im already into this about 1400 bucks! Thanks for all your help. Of course after this my wife might ban me from the forum!

[smitty24]

my wife and I are pretty open with everything, but when it comes to buying parts for the car... lets just say there is a mandatory sense of omission that must be there! when you get packages, it is imperative to hide the receipts quick as possible, as well as shove the new parts under the bed before she notices When my wife catches me on the forums, she reacts the same as if she caught me looking at another woman! Samba is like a swear word in our house.

For the tie rods, you can either ream the steering arm or get a kit to do it. the kit is probably easier and can be done at home by the novice. the spindles are the same- Im not sure if they are bored for early ends, but if they are not= you can either ream the top, or use the kit. one thing to consider is if you want it low, you may want to flip the outer ends if you are too low. this is not hard. deal with it as it happens- just telling you so you know. you can use the same steering damper. CB sells the whole assembly for the tie rods- which will save you from narrowing yours. Im not sure of the quality of their ends, though. I usually use German and narrow my own rods, then sleeve them. It is a nice setup overall, for the money. The parts are good enough for racing and well built. On all their newer beams, I have never seen anything out of tolerance or welded wrong! my buddy uses one of those disc brake kits on his turbo'd 1914cc and still hasnt burnt the pads up, after 4 years of heinous driving style!

[Finallyback65]

Ha thats good stuff. I bought the car a year ago and pushed it aside. Now after many exhausting conversations and a few shows she is begining to understand. So i figured i could use her strategy and just deny everthing! Thanks so much for the info. I will be posting updates now and then. And i will be posting new questions. I can guarentee that!

[Dropped Metal Customs]

its a topic that seems to get some people flustered
ill keep it short a sweet, as long as the car is aligned properly there no reason a lowered beetle should ride bad
i avoid the avis style adjusters as ive seen one fail, i use the tooth style
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BUSDROPPINGBEAMNARROWINGSTEERINGBOXRAISING"C"NOTCHINGRUSTREPAIRINGBEETLEDROPPING
@DroppedMetalCustoms

[smitty24]

The Avis is a tooth adjuster. Do you mean the Sway Aways?

[slalombuggy]

You putting on all the right parts to lower your car and still have a good ride. One thing I would recommend is if you are doing stainless brake hoses in the front also do them in the rear. It's kin d of bad practice to do one end and not the other. The screw style adjusters are crap. they don't line up with the blocks at full lift and the bracket bends. If I didn't powder coat my beam already , I would change over to the Avis style adjuster on my buggy. My new beam for my bug has the Avis (toothed) style adjusters on it. I cut off the screw style elongated the holes and welded them in.

brad

[touchdowntodd]

graet info
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mine - '65 6vt 40hp, 5.5" beam, Spindles, BRMs, etc
project with dad - '62 pan'd manx copy body 6vt 40hp..

[Finallyback65]

Brad i planned on doing the rear also. I am starting with the front and then next is the rear suspension along with the tranny. But thanks for looking out! I will also keep in mind the adjusters. I had the sway away style 15 years ago on the last vdub i owned before bumping my head and getting involved in minitrucks! I remember slamming that bug with spindles beam and 135s and hated the ride. I dont remember if the beam was narrowed or not. Or who built it. So this time i am putting way more thought, and money! These forums also help alot.

[slalombuggy]

OK just thouught I'd mention it. If you're only dropping a few inches I don't really think a narrowed beam is required, as you probably remember, we used to drop our cars in the 80's 4" off the ground without them and still be able to drive. Unless you want the "tunnel" look most dropped spindles push the wheels out by only 1/2". If you're not running a wide front tire it shouldn't hit the fender. I ran a 195/60's on the front of my '66, beam was dropped till the balljoints bound up. Rode lit shite, never hit tires though

brad