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AAZ Turbodiesel swap into '86 Vanagon Syncro
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess if I were to do it again (with the new-found knowledge), I'd run a 1/2 pipe tap into the existing drain hole. or find a fitting that would work with the existing threads.

My only concern with NPT is cracking the boss with the taper - major bummer.

Frozen boost has the best barbed fitting prices by far . . .
http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-adapter/water-to-air-fittings-p-178.html

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


FWIW, 1/2" pipe has a .604 ID - plenty big enough
Drill for 1/2" pipe tap is 23/32 [.71875]
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82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:52 am    Post subject: JX oil pan turbo drain threading Reply with quote

My JX oil pan has M16x1.5 threads for the turbo return. I ordered the Russell 670530 Adapter for 6AN Male, which means 3/8th ID return pipe all the way.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Fitting is aluminum and easily damaged. Takes a 22mm wrench, as you can see I had to use a monkey wrench and damaged it. I installed it with LocTite® thread sealer and it doesn’t leak, which is a feat because it is below the oil level.
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey Jerry

Quote:
Yes, I have a TD pan with the factory drain port like yours. I think it's an M12 thread...


This is M16x1.5

Pulled from my thread....
Quote:
Update: So i hope that I've fixed the oil entering the turbo. I gave the situation some serious thought and believe that it was my oil return design that was the culprit. I realized that the line I made up was boarding on too small a diameter for the oil to drain back. The real problem lay in the fittings. The fitting would go down to 1/4" in diameter internally restricted. Thats how they all seem to be designed. This was causing a huge restriction, causing back up of oil and pressure from above resulting in a lot of oil passing through the seals. I had to start again. In an ideal world I would remove the sump and have a very large bung welded just above the oil line, but that will have to wait. For now I still want to use the same threaded hole in the sump which is a 16mm x 1.5 thread. I re-drilled and tapped the turbo flange I had machined, to fit a 3/4 pipe. From there I cut apart some JIC fittings and TIG welded it to the end of the pipe. Then I used some hydraulic 1/2 ID hose and made up a tight line. I cut a JIC fitting in half and welded it to the other half of the fitting with the 16mm x 1.5 threads. I then drilled the fittings and hoses to around 11mm or 12mm I think. Can't remember exactly. All I was trying to achieve was maximum hose ID return diameter. Seems to have been a good move.

Can't seem to put the picture up in the quote.
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?Waldo?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not recommend using the aluminum AN fittings. They are weak, tend to leak, tend to break and are usually very restrictive especially considering how large they are externally. IMO, it is functionally much better (albeit a bit less slick in appearance) to use barb fittings and clamp on properly rated hose.
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman wrote:
I guess if I were to do it again (with the new-found knowledge), I'd run a 1/2 pipe tap into the existing drain hole. or find a fitting that would work with the existing threads.

My only concern with NPT is cracking the boss with the taper - major bummer.

Frozen boost has the best barbed fitting prices by far . . .
http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-adapter/water-to-air-fittings-p-178.html

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


FWIW, 1/2" pipe has a .604 ID - plenty big enough
Drill for 1/2" pipe tap is 23/32 [.71875]


This is the exact item I was looking at last night. The drill and tap will be the biggest expense here... 11/16 will also work, that 23/32 is a little scarce and pricey.
Thanks for the size corrections on the drain thread.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a cheap 6 pc pipe tap/die set at Harbor Freight.
15 bucks
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Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale).
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johnnygreenham
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do not recommend using the aluminum AN fittings. They are weak, tend to leak, tend to break and are usually very restrictive especially considering how large they are externally. IMO, it is functionally much better (albeit a bit less slick in appearance) to use barb fittings and clamp on properly rated hose.


Those aluminum AN fitting are hit and miss. With a little effort SS AN fittings can be found pretty easily. I drill them out. Plenty of meat there as like you said Andrew, the internal diameters are tiny for there appearance.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnnygreenham wrote:
Quote:
I do not recommend using the aluminum AN fittings. They are weak, tend to leak, tend to break and are usually very restrictive especially considering how large they are externally. IMO, it is functionally much better (albeit a bit less slick in appearance) to use barb fittings and clamp on properly rated hose.


Those aluminum AN fitting are hit and miss. With a little effort SS AN fittings can be found pretty easily. I drill them out. Plenty of meat there as like you said Andrew, the internal diameters are tiny for there appearance.


Agree with the above. My first attempt was the AN stuff. Granted, the JIC design is perfect for a excellent seal but made from aluminum is scary stuff for such a critical component.

Also, I believe the ID is small because if it were the same spec (larger ID/thinner wall) as steel, it would simply twist off when tightening.
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with automotive AN stuff is it's all Chinese crap. I dealt with aluminum aircraft AN fittings on Boeings all the time at work and I never had a problem with them snapping or rounding. I'd go with SS if/when I do use them. I'd like to convert my oil system hoses at some point, the hose clamp scheme looks hokey and unprofessional.

...or go shopping at work. Wink
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe use the semi-permanent SS clamps that require special pliers to install.
That would look "pro" to me anyway, but then I am fine with hose clamps so may not be a good point of reference Wink.
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My beef with the clamps is mostly that they're one-time use at the level of force I have to use on the Teflon/SS braid hose to keep them from leaking. Distorts the teeth on the band.

I used to live in Daytona Beach, and it was so nice there as an automotive hobbyist because the town is full of specialty parts suppliers that cater to the race crowd. Any kind of hose, connections, clamps, hardware, (and first-rate stuff), was at my fingertips. Here in NYC..., well, I'm sure they exist, but damned if I can find any. Long Island has a few good shops, but a long drive. I do most of my shopping online now. I miss interacting with knowledgeable suppliers firsthand.
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Gizmoman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncroincity wrote:
My beef with the clamps is mostly that they're one-time use at the level of force I have to use on the Teflon/SS braid hose to keep them from leaking. Distorts the teeth on the band.

I used to live in Daytona Beach, and it was so nice there as an automotive hobbyist because the town is full of specialty parts suppliers that cater to the race crowd. Any kind of hose, connections, clamps, hardware, (and first-rate stuff), was at my fingertips. Here in NYC..., well, I'm sure they exist, but damned if I can find any. Long Island has a few good shops, but a long drive. I do most of my shopping online now. I miss interacting with knowledgeable suppliers firsthand.


I agree about "real" autoparts places - they're all gone in San Diego as well. Just sitting at the parts counter was a learning experience. Shopping on-line is fine but everything needed is always at least four days out - really slows down the build process.

The hose I used (non wire braid) was made by gates and is rated for oil and temps up to 500F. Wire braid and teflon lined is not required for obvious reasons. That said, if you insist on using it, your fitting choices are certainly limited, and a band clamp is not a good choice.
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Syncroincity
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still futzing. Evil or Very Mad Zero spare time. Brick wall

I tapped the oil pan turbo drain hole and engine block oil drain bung with a 3/8" NPT tap, it's *almost* the same threads, you're just enlarging the hole a bit at the wide end; no drilling required. I'm going to use 1/2" hose (the same stuff I used for the oil system pressure lines, as I have plenty left over) to run from the turbo to the pan, and then run the catch can line to the block bung, using 45-deg brass fittings, 3/8NPTx1/2" barb. Still debating whether to tap the actual turbo drain hole likewise, or make a short pipe by welding the original adapter to a 1/2" pipe to take the hose. Tapping would be better, but would require either removing the turbo yet again, or at least dropping the left side engine mount.
Finally have some time this weekend to get under it, hoping for a good resolution to this freaking headache. I'm starting to regret doing the diesel. Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regrets - I hate em. Hopefully they'll go away after you get it done. Just make sure they don't make you cut corners or they'll stick around for a long time Shocked

Ask me how I know.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just finishing an aaz into my doka. I'm fortunate in that I started with a factory jx. I kept the jx exhaust manifold and k14, but made a spacer between the turbo and manifold to account for the difference in block height. My original oil return is still being used, and is around 1/2" equivalent going to the bung you guys have been referring to. The jx is apparently a hydraulic lifter engine, although there seems to be some debate about that and I haven't pulled the valve cover to check. I had no issue with dieseling when the jx was running.

I design and build turbo systems for a living, and we always use 3/4" turbo return lines that almost always go below the oil level in the pan because of the convenience of the location. I work with different engines, but oil aeration or any other detrimental effects have never been an issue.
So in my opinion everyone is right, bigger is better especially with the oil requirements of a fluid bearing turbo. Truthfully I don't work with anything but ball bearing turbos, this project is my first time using journal bearings. You are definitely on the right track here.

With regard to crankcase breathing, my setup is so simple I'm starting to wonder if I'm going to have issues, with all the thought and effort you guys have put into yours. Mine is 100% jx, with the hockey puck and one hose to the intake and the original hose down to the crankcase. There was oil in my intake path, but that was from a bad turbo, there wasn't much in the breather hose.

Just offering a perspective from an original jx that I've recently had my hands on.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JX had solid lifters.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Todd, thanks for the contribution. Smile My breather problems are relatively minor now, and diminishing as I build mileage, I'm pretty sure most of my operational problems are from the turbo oil backfeeding into the intake. My biggest problem right now is keeping the pressurized hoses from blowing off under boost because oil is creeping in under the clamped ends.

I'll have to stick with the long intercooler; the wide version doesn't clear the injection pump. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gizmoman wrote:
I bought a cheap 6 pc pipe tap/die set at Harbor Freight.
15 bucks


I made the mistake of going to the Long Island store... for the tap & die set and the large drill bit set.

$400 later... Shocked Razz Dancing

I'm a tool whore.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syncroincity wrote:
Still futzing. Evil or Very Mad Zero spare time. Brick wall

I tapped the oil pan turbo drain hole and engine block oil drain bung with a 3/8" NPT tap, it's *almost* the same threads, you're just enlarging the hole a bit at the wide end; no drilling required. I'm going to use 1/2" hose (the same stuff I used for the oil system pressure lines, as I have plenty left over) to run from the turbo to the pan, and then run the catch can line to the block bung, using 45-deg brass fittings, 3/8NPTx1/2" barb. Still debating whether to tap the actual turbo drain hole likewise, or make a short pipe by welding the original adapter to a 1/2" pipe to take the hose. Tapping would be better, but would require either removing the turbo yet again, or at least dropping the left side engine mount.
Finally have some time this weekend to get under it, hoping for a good resolution to this freaking headache. I'm starting to regret doing the diesel. Confused


I'd go big as soon as you can. In my opinion, the 3/8 45 may still be too restrictive. Possibly you could drill out the ID's a tad using a dull drill (brass grabs real easy).
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a restriction orifice in the oil supply line to the turbo?
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