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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:09 pm    Post subject: VAG/Porsche transmission options? Reply with quote

I've seen a couple off-brand transmission threads, so I'm just wondering what other options are available from the VAG + Porsche parts bin. It seems like there are various Audi units that might be modified to fit, as well as VW type I, Fox/Dasher and Porsche rear engine options.

Thoughts?

Casey
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only transmissions from the VAG/Porsche empire that will work are Porsche 911 transmissions. There are five basic varieties of these to choose from - and one new exciting one soon to debut:

1. Type 915 Transmission: 1973-1986 Porsche 911. It's a good transmission, and it's compact enough to go in a Vanagon, but it has very poor shift quality and it is set up for cable clutch actuation.

2. G50 Transmission: 1987-1994 Porsche 911. This is an excellent transmission, and the pre-1990 short version would fit a Vanagon very well.

3. G50/20 Transmission: 1995-1998 Porsche 911. This is a 6 speed version of the G50.

4. G96 Transmission: 1999-2005 Porsche 911. Once again a 6 speed Getrag unit. This time it has cable shift actuation.

5. G97 Transmission: 2006-C Porsche 911. This one's gonna kill you, Zeitgeist Smile It's made in Japan by Aisin! Yup, with the 997, Porsche stopped using Getrag boxes and started sourcing their manual trannies from Aisin.

6. New 991 Transmission: The new 911 which is due to be released very soon uses the world's first 7 speed manual gearbox. Tell me you wouldn't want that in your Vanagon.

The biggest problem with all of these Porsche gearboxes is supply and cost. The G50s have a used market value of about $2800 and the G97s go for nearly $5000. The 915s can be had for less, probably $1500, but they have lots of miles on them and are also hard to find.

Another problem with using these Porsche trannies, and it's one that a lot of people don't quite get, is the fact that they are geared way too high for a Vanagon. All of these trannies up through at least the G50/20 use a 3.44:1 final drive ratio. For comparison, a typical Audi performance model uses a 4.11:1 final drive. Both have similar 1st gears of about 3.50:1. That gives an idea of just how tall the gearing is on a 911. 911s have typically been geared very high in first gear. It works because the cars are light in relation to the excellent torque of their large displacement motors. But put this in a Vanagon that weighs about 1000 lbs more, and you've got a first gear that's far from ideal. And one thing's for certain. You can't afford to open up a Porsche tranny and have custom ring and pinion gears installed. The later 6 speeds are a bit better. They still use the 3.44 final drive, but their first gear is like 3.82:1 instead of 3.50, but probably still not ideal.

It would be nice if the Audi front drive trannies could be used, but they can't. They just aren't packaged to be able to flip the differential.

There's are some possibilities with Audi automatics, but that's another discussion for another day.

David
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
The only transmissions from the VAG/Porsche empire that will work are Porsche 911 transmissions. There are five basic varieties of these to choose from - and one new exciting one soon to debut:

1. Type 915 Transmission: 1973-1986 Porsche 911. It's a good transmission, and it's compact enough to go in a Vanagon, but it has very poor shift quality and it is set up for cable clutch actuation.

2. G50 Transmission: 1987-1994 Porsche 911. This is an excellent transmission, and the pre-1990 short version would fit a Vanagon very well.

3. G50/20 Transmission: 1995-1998 Porsche 911. This is a 6 speed version of the G50.

4. G96 Transmission: 1999-2005 Porsche 911. Once again a 6 speed Getrag unit. This time it has cable shift actuation.

5. G97 Transmission: 2006-C Porsche 911. This one's gonna kill you, Zeitgeist Smile It's made in Japan by Aisin! Yup, with the 997, Porsche stopped using Getrag boxes and started sourcing their manual trannies from Aisin.

6. New 991 Transmission: The new 911 which is due to be released very soon uses the world's first 7 speed manual gearbox. Tell me you wouldn't want that in your Vanagon.

The biggest problem with all of these Porsche gearboxes is supply and cost. The G50s have a used market value of about $2800 and the G97s go for nearly $5000. The 915s can be had for less, probably $1500, but they have lots of miles on them and are also hard to find.

Another problem with using these Porsche trannies, and it's one that a lot of people don't quite get, is the fact that they are geared way too high for a Vanagon. All of these trannies up through at least the G50/20 use a 3.44:1 final drive ratio. For comparison, a typical Audi performance model uses a 4.11:1 final drive. Both have similar 1st gears of about 3.50:1. That gives an idea of just how tall the gearing is on a 911. 911s have typically been geared very high in first gear. It works because the cars are light in relation to the excellent torque of their large displacement motors. But put this in a Vanagon that weighs about 1000 lbs more, and you've got a first gear that isn't ideal. And one thing's for certain. You can't afford to open up a Porsche tranny and have custom ring and pinion gears installed. The later 6 speeds are a bit better. They still use the 3.44 final drive, but their first gear is like 3.82:1 instead of 3.50, but probably still not ideal.

It would be nice if the Audi front drive trannies could be used, but they can't. They just aren't packaged to be able to flip the differential.

There's are some possibilities with Audi automatics, but that's another discussion for another day.

David
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Casey!
There was a topic of a guy who did a crazy job in UK flipping a differential in an Audi Transmission,or putting it upside down ,I don't recal if same or different person.

I have a ZF tranny in my van,it's German,no?

I got these ratios 3.36 1ST 2.05 2ND 1.38 3RD 1.04 4TH 0.82 5TH

I love the first,killing any vanagon racing with me Laughing
I can push the 3rd until something like 70MPH.

Porsche are expensive,mind as well put a Mendeola (Mexican? Laughing ) Aouch!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Hi Casey!
There was a topic of a guy who did a crazy job in UK flipping a differential in an Audi Transmission,or putting it upside down ,I don't recal if same or different person.

I have a ZF tranny in my van,it's German,no?

I got these ratios 3.36 1ST 2.05 2ND 1.38 3RD 1.04 4TH 0.82 5TH

I love the first,killing any vanagon racing with me Laughing
I can push the 3rd until something like 70MPH.

Porsche are expensive,mind as well put a Mendeola (Mexican? Laughing ) Aouch!!


I'd forgotten about that one. It was someone from the UK, and he mounted the whole Audi tranny upside down.

So the Renault UN1 is a ZF unit? I always just assumed it was an actual Renault design.

D
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that's a ZF,looks similar to some DeTomaso ZF1 tranny I believe.

I'll dig more on the builder to be sure.

Differential on VW trannies were made by +GF+, they also make plumbing fittings Laughing You can still see the cast stamping on some aircooled ones.It's French Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

D Clymer wrote:
The only transmissions from the VAG/Porsche empire that will work are Porsche 911 transmissions. There are five basic varieties of these to choose from - and one new exciting one soon to debut:

1. Type 915 Transmission: 1973-1986 Porsche 911. It's a good transmission, and it's compact enough to go in a Vanagon, but it has very poor shift quality and it is set up for cable clutch actuation.

2. G50 Transmission: 1987-1994 Porsche 911. This is an excellent transmission, and the pre-1990 short version would fit a Vanagon very well.

3. G50/20 Transmission: 1995-1998 Porsche 911. This is a 6 speed version of the G50.

4. G96 Transmission: 1999-2005 Porsche 911. Once again a 6 speed Getrag unit. This time it has cable shift actuation.

5. G97 Transmission: 2006-C Porsche 911. This one's gonna kill you, Zeitgeist Smile It's made in Japan by Aisin! Yup, with the 997, Porsche stopped using Getrag boxes and started sourcing their manual trannies from Aisin.

6. New 991 Transmission: The new 911 which is due to be released very soon uses the world's first 7 speed manual gearbox. Tell me you wouldn't want that in your Vanagon.

The biggest problem with all of these Porsche gearboxes is supply and cost. The G50s have a used market value of about $2800 and the G97s go for nearly $5000. The 915s can be had for less, probably $1500, but they have lots of miles on them and are also hard to find.

Another problem with using these Porsche trannies, and it's one that a lot of people don't quite get, is the fact that they are geared way too high for a Vanagon. All of these trannies up through at least the G50/20 use a 3.44:1 final drive ratio. For comparison, a typical Audi performance model uses a 4.11:1 final drive. Both have similar 1st gears of about 3.50:1. That gives an idea of just how tall the gearing is on a 911. 911s have typically been geared very high in first gear. It works because the cars are light in relation to the excellent torque of their large displacement motors. But put this in a Vanagon that weighs about 1000 lbs more, and you've got a first gear that's far from ideal. And one thing's for certain. You can't afford to open up a Porsche tranny and have custom ring and pinion gears installed. The later 6 speeds are a bit better. They still use the 3.44 final drive, but their first gear is like 3.82:1 instead of 3.50, but probably still not ideal.

It would be nice if the Audi front drive trannies could be used, but they can't. They just aren't packaged to be able to flip the differential.

There's are some possibilities with Audi automatics, but that's another discussion for another day.

David


Thanks, that's some great info. I'm curious about the final drive ratios. My other passion is the MB 124 chassis with their turbodiesels. Those cars come with a 2.65 rear end, and have a curb weight of 3,329lbs combined with a 4 spd auto. Since their weight isn't too far from that of my tintop, why does the T3 need such low gearing? I'll have to look into the planetary gear ratios, but those cars accelerate quite briskly with that high of a final drive; my tweaked wagon was timed to sixty in 7 secs.

Actually, I'd like to explore automatic options as well. I'll be swapping in a modified mTDI in the near future, and I'd like to couple it with an auto, but I don't find the stock 3spd to be a satisfying option. There's got to be a Porsche or Audi setup that can be modified to fit, right?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
Thanks, that's some great info. I'm curious about the final drive ratios. My other passion is the MB 124 chassis with their turbodiesels. Those cars come with a 2.65 rear end, and have a curb weight of 3,329lbs combined with a 4 spd auto. Since their weight isn't too far from that of my tintop, why does the T3 need such low gearing? I'll have to look into the planetary gear ratios, but those cars accelerate quite briskly with that high of a final drive; my tweaked wagon was timed to sixty in 7 secs.

Actually, I'd like to explore automatic options as well. I'll be swapping in a modified mTDI in the near future, and I'd like to couple it with an auto, but I don't find the stock 3spd to be a satisfying option. There's got to be a Porsche or Audi setup that can be modified to fit, right?


Turbo diesels typically are geared much higher due to their low end torque and low redline. Also, automatics can get away with much taller final drive ratios because their torque converters have a certain "stall threshold" where the torque converter allows the engine to rev higher upon initial application of the throttle. This acts as a torque multiplier and allows very tall final drives. For instance, a 4 speed manual Vanagon has a first gear of 3.78:1 and a final drive ratio of 4.83:1. This gives an overall ratio of 18.26. The automatic Vanagon on the other hand has a first gear of 2.71:1 and a final drive ratio of 4.09:1. Overall ratio: 11.08:1. Then factor in a torque converter stall factor of something like 1.5 and you get an overall ratio from rest of 16.62:1. I don't know the exact stall factor, but this is close, and you get the idea. So, in the end, final drive ratios can't really be compared directly between autos and manuals.

Now in terms of automatics for a Vanagon, the newer Audi automatic transmissions are ZF transmissions and they often are the same basic unit as a Porsche from the same time period. For instance the 4 speed automatic from a C4 Audi 100/A6 is a ZF 4HP 18, and I'm pretty sure a 964 series Porsche 911 with the original Tiptronic system is also a ZF 4HP18 (it might be a higher torque rated version.) These transmissions are actually packaged for rear wheel drive and they have the output coming off the end of the transmission opposite the bellhousing end. Since the Audi is front drive, they then turned the drive around with a gearset that runs a short driveshaft that goes back along the length of the tranny and drives the front differential. The Porsche since it is rear engined and has the rear diff mounted at the bellhousing end also has this layout. The difference is in the direction the short driveshaft is turned. The Porsche has an extra gear in the transfer system. It would be worthwhile to compare the two units and see if the drive transfer parts can be interchanged. If not, a custom arrangement could be arrived at, but it would of course be involved and expensive. But this is definitely a possibility and kind of an intriguing one. Of course the other problem is that these trannies are electronically controlled, but it seems to me the early Audi A4 1.9 TDI in europe used a 4 speed automatic which is probably the same unit. If that's the case you might be able to combine that basic transmission and its software with the drive transfer system from a Porsche Tiptronic 964 and possibly also the ring and pinion gears. Or it might end up being a bunch of non-compatible parts. You'd definitely have to do some research.

In the short term, I don't think using the old VW 3 speed automatic with the upcoming 3.27:1 final drive would be that bad. It certainly wouldn't give top mileage, but I'll bet a torquey TDI would power through those three ratios just fine. A lockup torque converter would be nice, though.

David
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David excellent guide of 911 gearboxes !
915 first used in 1972 instead...I assume that you don't put the 901/911s and 930s as they are not suitable ?

Also in terms of quality the G96.50 I got with plan to put it on my syncro was a much lower quality unit compared with my G50.52 also the gears are very firmly pressed in the shafts w/o grooves as per old good G50s...
Cable shift is much easier to adapt but this force me to sell my G96.50 and to keep the G50.52 that I will regear with gears from a G50.00 and custom ones...Also a G50.50 nose cone will be used to make things fit.And I don't need very much work in the regear as this will get an 1986 3.3 Turbo RUF engiine...UN1 is a nice box but much more work compared to the G50 and the G50.00/01 1987-89 is the most easy to adapt even MSDS use to sell adapter...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casey,

you can still put a Tiptronic,they sell the reverse pinion set for the nose cone in Germany( )

Or reverse the engine rotation,and use a lovely Audi transmission,that might cost cheaper having a camshaft cut for that application and other stuff,or stick in your vanagon a 2.5 m-TDI non reversed,and you're good to go almost.....My crazy thoughts,running for years Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha ha, I like the reversing cam option! I suppose an distributor-type injection pump can operate in reverse except for the internal feed pump, which would be blowing rather than sucking, huh?

Wow, Tiptronic would be a killer setup...wonder how I could trick it into working without an engine management ECU.

Sure wish I'd spent more time tinkering with transmissions, but they've never really caused me grief in any of the cars I've owned or worked on in the biz.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know the 2.5 m-TDI runs with the pump on the other side of the engine,and it was hard for th first one to find a camplate that would suit this application for the mechanical pump (it turns in the opposite way as most of the bosch pumps)

So I guess it wouldn't be hard to find a 5 cylinder pump that turns the opposite way (the classic way we know) and then make a reversed cam shaft.

Water pump would need work too,as well as belt tensioners and oil pump.

I'm pretty sure that's do able with time and money,and might cost less than a Porsche set up,because then you can run an Audi transmission Cool

Bye Casey,have a nice 4th of July!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ALIKA T3 wrote:
Hi Casey!
There was a topic of a guy who did a crazy job in UK flipping a differential in an Audi Transmission,or putting it upside down ,I don't recal if same or different person.

I have a ZF tranny in my van,it's German,no?

I got these ratios 3.36 1ST 2.05 2ND 1.38 3RD 1.04 4TH 0.82 5TH

I love the first,killing any vanagon racing with me Laughing
I can push the 3rd until something like 70MPH.

Porsche are expensive,mind as well put a Mendeola (Mexican? Laughing ) Aouch!!


Unless your pushing more then 300hp a American made Mendeola transaxle is over kill...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave
Good write up but a little more info on the 915 is needed.

31/7= 4.42 final in early mag cases
31/8= 3.875 final in later alum cases

The early cases are Mag. and the later are Alum. The mag cases have bearings that seem to last longer or can be replased by pressing out and pressing in. The alum cases obround the bearing holes after long time of use.

The gear ratios for the 911s are based on a 25" dia tire.

I am thinking of putting a 75-915 with 7/31 final in my vanagon. The TBD's are big bucks for these trannys.

jeff
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll be sticking a 996 C4 gearbox into my Bluestar shortly.

I've always looked at the Vanagon and the 996 as being a fairly similar weight.

A 996 C4S is 3020lbs or 1370kg. A Vanagon Combi comes in at 1395kg or 3075lbs. Not too much difference.

I'll be running Porsche size wheels and tyres so the gearing will be as per Porsche and I'll have 280bhp plus to shove it along. I'm hoping to get fairly good mpg with the 6th gear rpm 2600rpm @ 70mph. That's good enough for a TDi too Smile

The gear ratios are 3.444 final drive, 1st: 3.818, 2nd: 2.200, 3rd: 1.516, 4th: 1.216, 5th: 1.024 and 6th: 0.841

MG
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the electronic control for the Audi C4 Quattro automagics CAN-bus controlled or a stand alone ECU with inputs from the engine ECU?* If it's the latter, it seems that the ECU can be tricked into operating with just inputs from the CPS and TPS. I'm intrigued with this option, as I really don't need the rock crawling ability of a Syncro, but would like the sure-footedness of a Quattro...problem is that the C4 locks the rear diff, which in a van would then become the front diff. C4s are dirt cheap and plentiful. I bet the front suspension from a Quattro could be welded up and modded to work



*I could probably find this out for myself, if my Bentley CD worked with Vista...grumble grumble
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No can on that old thing, how do you plan on making it spin the right direction. Only the ealy C4's had the locking rear diff.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See Dave C's earlier post on the possibility of changing the direction of power in the automagics. I also remember seeing a build thread whereby some dude was able to add a set of reverse gears on the rear of an Audi Tiptronic tranny...seems plausible. I have two '94 C4s and they both have locking rear diffs.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since Dave's excellent 5spd build thread has culminated in what appears to an excellent trans swap, I thought I'd resurrect this thread which is devoted to the pursuit of other options to consider. Maybe this will spawn a build thread...

I see several others have been pursuing Audi options like the 012, which appears to have some following amongst the kit car crowd. I think this is the trans we've seen in another thread that's been flipped over with the five cyl. TDI swap. As I've mentioned before, I'd like to see how that configuration holds up over time. If it does, that could be a very attractive option.

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I'm presently contemplating the part out of my C4 Quattro which has a ZF 4HP 18 4spd automatic. This trans was installed in a wide variety of cars (incl. Dodge/Eagle/Renault) for about a decade, and is pretty robust. I'm very curious to see if it can be modified to run in a rear configuration with a pinion "redirect", as opposed to a ring gear swap.

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Assuming this can be accomplished, it could technically be possible to run the remaining Quattro drivetrain, which could create a rather nice AWD vehicle for the road, rather than rock-crawling. Imagine if Audi had produced an upmarket version of the T3 back in the late '80's.


EDIT: That second to last pic appears to be an 016 trans
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the risk of repeating myself...

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This is a kit from HA Projekt in Germany. It's not cheap!

I'm looking into using Audi Quattro Manual and Automatic gearboxes and making use of the 'shaft inside a shaft' design which enables you to treat the gearbox and differential as seperate units...

MG
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