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180 degree out distributor valve adjustment
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unknown force
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject: 180 degree out distributor valve adjustment Reply with quote

just wondering what the correct method is for doing a valve adjustment on a dualport 1600 with the dizzy 180 degrees out

doesn't it mess up all the standard methods for valve adjustments or something?
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Lettuce
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, you still just line up the marks at number one and go from there. The distributor is rotated, but the timing is the same and cylinder 1, 2, 3, and 4 are still1, 2, 3, and 4. So just line up the rotor to the line on the distributor body for number one and adjust cylinder one, then spin the crank pulley backwards half a rotation and do number two, another half and do three, then one more half and do four.
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glutamodo Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lettuce wrote:
cylinder 1, 2, 3, and 4 are still1, 2, 3, and 4. So just line up the rotor to the line on the distributor body for number one and adjust cylinder one.


True.... BUT with an 009... that only works IF the distributor was rotated around so number one mark is really at number one.

I remember my very first valve adjustment in like 1989 or so... unbeknownst to me, my car's drive gear was off by 180, but my 009 was set in there with the spark plug for number 3 at the number 1 line. And so I just blindly followed directions not knowing any better, and got shocked as hell to find all my valves horribly incorrect. I took this picture around that time - you can barely see the distributor part number...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mine was 180* out for about 20 years Laughing I got my car in 98 the owner said he replaced the motor in 88 and I had it rebuilt in 08 LOL thats some funny shit right there.. you just need to determine were your #1 is,, remember TDC is always TDC no matter the firing order.
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badufay
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Make sure you adjust the valves when the rotor is pointing to where number 1 is actually firing. I was off 180 once and the valve chatter was horrible, I'd set it to .006 rotate it, and would change to damn near 0.25"! Assuming it has to do with the cam lobes why that happens. I set it right and perfect ever since
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you are not 100% sure where #1 cylinder is on your distributor....
Watch the video at the top of this thread to see how you find TDC for #1 cylinder using #3 cylinder valve movement:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438063

If you follow the directions, your engine will end up at TDC for #1 and wherever you rotor happens to be pointing will be where the #1 spark plug wire should be connected to the distributor cap. If the mark for #1 cylinder along the rim of the distributor is not there... rotate the distributor until it is. Then readjust timing. If you have a vacuum canister on your distributor, it may not be possible to rotate it to line up.
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jtgh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

a great question.
in ASE school
; instructor yells, , watch the valves, and the answer is before eyes.
intake, compression, power stroke, exh. stroke.
if you know the firing order of any engine , all that you need to know
is the above.

but.....
1: attach compressing gage #1 (no, not the cone type for v8s)
rotate Crank pulley until you see the rise in compression then see
TDC mark align. bingo TCD #1 firing.

2: stuff end of plastic shopping bag in spark hole 1 , rotate and when it blows out you are on compression stroke.

3: with 3/8" rubber hose in lips, set pulley at TDC. then blow in the
cylinder #1 spark hole (i have this cone adaptor on my hose for all cars)
if you cant blow, it's at TDC #1

4: if all you want is piston position , use a kids flexistraw(drink) in the spark hole,(move crank ,see straw move)
it's safe and wont break off or hurt anything.

5: use my fancy DTC gauge the screws in to the spark hole. $25
we use this guage for correcting TDC errors on OEM crank pulley's
A Racing deal. (we dont trust anything)
called degree'ing the crank. (or cam)


many new cars, the FSM clearly stated #1 above.
and works Valve covers ON.

valve covers off, all this is moot
the valve action and the crank TDC mark is all you need to set any valve lash.
do not look at the disty rotor. if you you do, 1/2 of you will go very mad.

on all cars (like design), set cam first (see my video on chapter 2)
set lash 2nd
and set disty last
always assume some other GUY (PO, or wild man) set something wrong.
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Last edited by jtgh on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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HRVW
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surprised There is always a hard way or easy way to do a job.

When a person is doing a job a certain way and not privy to any other way they in essence are in a rut.

Why do four steps in adjusting your valves when it can be done in two steps.

Have posted this before and will post again for newbees.

Bring pully to TDC with rotor pointing towards #1 wire.

Adjust both valves on #1, Intake on #2, Exhaust on #4.

Rotate engine 180 degrees TDC with rotor pointing to #3 wire.

Adjust both valves on #3, Intake on #4, Exhaust on #2.

TWO moves and it's done.

Steve (VW mechanic 28yrs)
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jtgh
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in school we learn the hard way
no FSM (1000s of cars, have a book on all, no)
no net
no time to waste , fracking around.

it works all motors, and in class, they have you walk the cam through
on many blocks (cut away so you can see what is happening)
this is the teaching how to fish way!

but nothing beats the FSM way, the short cut.
sure.
but if you mess up, or dont understand it , you can always fall back
the walking it through way.
YMMV.

curious, you think spinning a crank 180 Degress more is hard?
really? this tiny motor? with no sparks?
heck , i pull compression test, during this 1 time a year, just for records.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HRVW wrote:
Bring pully to TDC with rotor pointing towards #1 wire.

Adjust both valves on #1, Intake on #2, Exhaust on #4.

Rotate engine 180 degrees TDC with rotor pointing to #3 wire. <---- I think you meant "Rotate engine 360 degrees" here... 180-deg and the rotor will be pointing to #4 cylinder wire. Unless you meant "Rotate engine so ROTOR moves 180 degrees"? Very Happy

Adjust both valves on #3, Intake on #4, Exhaust on #2.

TWO moves and it's done.

Steve (VW mechanic 28yrs)

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HRVW
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shame on you Holy toledo...I'm embarrassed...I meant 360 degrees obviously...needed that 2nd cup of coffee this morning. What the hell was I thinking...dang I know better. Mind says one thing and the fingers type something else. The mistake is ruining my day

Maybe a person in Japan from way back is watching over me.

Steve
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
HRVW wrote:
Bring pully to TDC with rotor pointing towards #1 wire.

Adjust both valves on #1, Intake on #2, Exhaust on #4.

Rotate engine 180 degrees TDC with rotor pointing to #3 wire. <---- I think you meant "Rotate engine 360 degrees" here... 180-deg and the rotor will be pointing to #4 cylinder wire. Unless you meant "Rotate engine so ROTOR moves 180 degrees"? Very Happy

Adjust both valves on #3, Intake on #4, Exhaust on #2.

TWO moves and it's done.

Steve (VW mechanic 28yrs)



So the rotor should be pointing at number 4, correct?
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HRVW
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boo hoo! Still feeling embarrassed. We know there are four cyl wires on the dist cap. TDC will have the rotor pointing towards either #1 or #3 cyl wire. To avoid any confusion it's best to start with rotor at #1 wire.

At TDC #1 adjust both valves, Intake on #2, Exhaust on #4

Turn 360 degrees to the RIGHT

At TDC #3 adjust both valves, Intake on #4, Exhaust #2

Two steps. Apologize for the repeat.

Just one of my bad days this week.
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Polie
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I just have never done valves before and I am doing them in the AM and was just looking for tips lol
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jtgh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buy the Muir book ( it is for beginners. ) get the latest edition.
he does it 1 cylinder at a time so the noob don't get confused.

that is why in ASE school they teach the long way.
that way , you can do any motor made, just by watching lobe action!

sometimes short and complicated (2 moves), is harder than long and 4 moves.
that's what she ,said.. hehehehehehehe


you can set (lash) on any motor, with the cam on the heals.
any.

do not look at the rotor
if someone timed the disty gear wrong, you just got sent down the
prim rose path to H3LL.

the best way is: (tell me im wrong?)
after lash is set
then set #1 at TDC using VALVE action (heals)
then open that disty cap and see where PO put that rotor for TDC 1
if you ever work on any car with gear distributor you will lean this fast.

never ASSUME. DO find truth. the truth of your motor.

the Muir books shows how to put the disty back to VW DAY 1.
in vivid words and details and photos.
why wait,
book cheaper than floor mats..

cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hell, it was Muir that led me astray when I did that very first valve adjustment all those years ago. In the Maintenance Chapter, valve adjustment section, all he says to do is line the rotor up with the mark. He does NOT mention watching the valves as you turn the engine over, at least, not in that chapter. It IS in there, but it's in the Engine Rebuild chapter part about adjusting valves. But I wasn't following that part - nor was I being smart and just tracing the plug wires! I soon learned my lesson though!

-Andy
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jtgh
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is common to every motor ever built with a gear driven disty
was true on v8 , and true in 90s. (i have 98 with that , a suzuki)
57 chev SB

assuming the other yoyo planted the disty wrong, makes for 10,0000 forum posts world wide, no?
i think muir was assuming he built the motor, which is his magic....LOL

so sorry it has to happen to anyone.
id say , day 1 , do the page on validating the cam gear.
with that nice photo in the book.

those 2 washers scare the heck out of me, id not touch them, less 100% necessary.
cheers.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 180 degree out distributor valve adjustment Reply with quote

unknown force wrote:
just wondering what the correct method is for doing a valve adjustment on a dualport 1600 with the dizzy 180 degrees out

To the OP (who hasn't come back since the original post)....
I realized that your questions may not have been directly answered.

Once you identify that your engine is at TDC of the compression stroke for cylinder #1 (by any of the methods above), the valve adjustment sequence is the same as in the service manual.

The distributor being 180-deg out just means the position of the #1 spark plug wire (as well as the other plug wires) around the distributor cap is not where you would expect it based on the service manual pics. This creates confusion and often results in the distributor cap being wired up incorrectly. But as long as the wires ARE in the correct positions and the engine runs well, functionally it doesn't matter.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
In case you are not 100% sure where #1 cylinder is on your distributor....
Watch the video at the top of this thread to see how you find TDC for #1 cylinder using #3 cylinder valve movement:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438063

If you follow the directions, your engine will end up at TDC for #1 and wherever you rotor happens to be pointing will be where the #1 spark plug wire should be connected to the distributor cap. If the mark for #1 cylinder along the rim of the distributor is not there... rotate the distributor until it is. Then readjust timing. If you have a vacuum canister on your distributor, it may not be possible to rotate it to line up.


Please excuse my noobish question but if it dizzy is off 180* do you just rotate it 180* around like when adjusting timing?

(btw I did pick up that book today and have about half of it read lol)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's an 009, the style without the vacuum canister, yes you can rotate it around so the mark on the rim lines up with the rotor once you've put the engine to #1 Top Dead Center. In that picture I posted above, the plug wires were in the 180 degree off spots, but the distributor was in the normal place, and I was too much a newbie myself way back then to spot that.

Speaking of the Idiot Book and the 009 distributor - he praises the 009 distributor at one point in there. Don't believe him. It's just a cheapo general purpose distributor that were used because they were almost always a lot more affordable than fixing or replacing a broken stock distributor. But on 1970s dual port engines they are quite inferior to using the correct distributors that match your carburetor. Back in the 70s when he wrote about them, the 009s were still made in Germany and were decent quality, but still not appropriate for 34PICT carburetors. Then, quality went downhill a little when they moved production to Brazil, but not as bad as now where you have those China made copies. uggh!
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