Retarded #3 timing on pre-doghouse distributors

[Glenn]

[tabbottuf]

Don't let them get you down Sean (Candymustang). Although I was annoyed with your posts early on, I have grown quite fond of them. You obviously have some vw knowledge to impart and can incorporate pretty funny BS as well. With your posts, I extract the good stuff and laugh at the rest. As for all you others on the Samba, you know that it wouldn't be the same here without Sean....and admit it, you all read his stuff too.

Keep it coming Sean!!!

Tracy

[easy e]

So my 1970 1600 SP has these attributes:
009 dist
30PICT-3
stock exhaust

I was planning on modifying to doghouse.
Installing volksbitz rebuilt 30PICT-3 carb and tasb rebuilt 205T dizzy (stock carb / ignition).
Now that I'm going doghouse... I don't need the retarded #3 lobe.

I'd like to keep it as stock... just trying to see if there's a mechanical negative (besides less oomph with 30PICT).

Do you guys suggest:

A) Don't worry about the few degree retarded #3 lobe... just keep doing what you're planning because it won't really matter.

B) Use 34PICT-3 carb and SVDA distributor (which one?) because the three degrees on the one lobe of a non-doghouse distributor is bad (if you've gone external) & is a good consideration when doing a doghouse conversion.

C) Use 30PICT-3 because 34PICT is too much for 1600SP and use _____ distributor.

D) ???.... I'm open...

Thanks,
e
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[sb001]

Personally I don't think it will matter that much, I would just go with that you've already got.
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I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[richardc]

I remember first time I saw it on a scope and condemned it for having bad distributer.....exceeded max. Dwell variation.... Put new one in...same pattern. Learned about VW retard on cyl #3.
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1970 Ghia vert
1970 Beetle sedan

[Aussiebug]

Easy e, just go with the 30pict3 and the distributor with the retarded no. 3. You won't hurt the engine.

The 34pict3 won't fit on an sp manifold, the mounting flange is too large.
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Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
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[ashman40]

IMHO, the retard of #3 is still useful (but not required) on doghouse fan shrouds. Of the four cylinders #3 gets the least cooling air from the fan. It is farther away from the spinning fan and the way the output of the fan shroud lines up the #4 cylinder is more exposed to the air than #3. You just need to realize you will loose a bit of overall power.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
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[airschooled]

[Meiang]

Looking back on this old thread, I didn't see any comment on using a distributor with no No. 3 retard on an earlier engine which does not have the doghouse type oil cooler - will this be a major issue.

I assume the more recent 009's do not have a retarded no.3 cylinder lobe profile.

Also if you use a 123 electronic distributor does this have a retarded no.3 cylinder timing.

[airschooled]

Thanks for using an old tread instead of starting another one!

I don't know which, if any electronic distributors come with a #3 retard. You can check any distributor with a timing light and a degree pulley though. (A careful observer can use a static timing method to check too!) Stick your strobe timing light and check your idle timing on each cylinder. If one is behind the rest by any noticeable amount, you can shift the distributor 90* or 180* to reassign the retard, as long as you reposition the plug wires back to where they came from spatially. Make sense?

If you go electronic module in an older distributor, the module sets this, not the distributor. I had an off-brand module that had a 4* spread over all the cylinders. It wasn't intentional, just poorly made.

Robbie
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[ashman40]

[Dwighia]

Appreciate all the previous comments. Hope some of you folks are still around since 2011....

I believe I have an 009 distributor where the #3 is retarded.
I have a stock '71 Ghia with what I believe is a Spectra Premium VW06 1836(according to the sticker) distributor?

At present, the distributor is set up with the #1 cylinder wires at the normal 4 o'clock position on the dizzy. (There is no notch on the dizzy rim to help with where the #1 firing position really is.) When I time it with a timing light I get 32d at 3k rpms and 15d at idle=820 rpms.

However, when I hook the timing light to the #3 cylinder wires I get 35d at 3k rpms and 15d at idle=820 rpms.

So, because I am getting MORE advance at #3, I'm worried that my dizzy is off by 180 degrees. Currently the condenser is at about 10 o'clock and the #1 cylinder wire is at 4 o'clock.

My question is:

1. Should I just rotate my distributor CAP 180 degrees and have the #1 cylinder wire come from the 10 o'clock position on the dizzy? (and forever be confused and befuddled)
or
2. Should I just twist the distributor around 180 degrees, (while still in the engine), and rewire the cap to where the #1 cylinder wire is still in the 4 o'clock position? (seems like this wouldn't change the position of the lobes on the distributor shaft and it would just be the same as before)
or
3. Should I remove the distributor out of the engine, turn it 180 degrees and then reinstall it? Again, rewiring to keep the #1 cylinder wire at the 4' o'clock position? Can you actually do this with a distributor?

Thanks in advance for any and all help.
Dwight

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'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
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[rockerarm]

[quote="Dwighia"]Appreciate all the previous comments. Hope some of you folks are still around since 2011....

I believe I have an 009 distributor where the #3 is retarded.
I have a stock '71 Ghia with what I believe is a Spectra Premium VW06 1836(according to the sticker) distributor?

At present, the distributor is set up with the #1 cylinder wires at the normal 4 o'clock position on the dizzy. (There is no notch on the dizzy rim to help with where the #1 firing position really is.) When I time it with a timing light I get 32d at 3k rpms and 15d at idle=820 rpms.

However, when I hook the timing light to the #3 cylinder wires I get 35d at 3k rpms and 15d at idle=820 rpms.

So, because I am getting MORE advance at #3, I'm worried that my dizzy is off by 180 degrees. Currently the condenser is at about 10 o'clock and the #1 cylinder wire is at 4 o'clock.

My question is:

1. Should I just rotate my distributor CAP 180 degrees and have the #1 cylinder wire come from the 10 o'clock position on the dizzy? (and forever be confused and befuddled)
or
2. Should I just twist the distributor around 180 degrees, (while still in the engine), and rewire the cap to where the #1 cylinder wire is still in the 4 o'clock position? (seems like this wouldn't change the position of the lobes on the distributor shaft and it would just be the same as before)
or
3. Should I remove the distributor out of the engine, turn it 180 degrees and then reinstall it? Again, rewiring to keep the #1 cylinder wire at the 4' o'clock position? Can you actually do this with a distributor?

Thanks in advance for any and all help.
Dwight

Hi. It is interesting that this distrib shows the same base timing (15 * idle) but different total timing (32* and 35*). The fact that your distrib does not have the notch would indicate that all the lobes are timed at 90 * apart, and no 3* retard exists. But, if you are sure of your results you could re-index the distrib to your liking. I recently became aware of the distrib bodies location as it sits in the bore seems to be something many might not be aware of. This is thanks to mcmscott for taking me to school.
Look at your distrib's body that sits inside the case's bore and you should see a drilling that allows oil to lubricate the distrib's bushings. This drilling should line up with an opening in the case bore that will throw oil off the timing gears for this. So, just turning the distrib 180 possibly puts this drilling out of line with the oil splash.
So, that said, you seem to know where the 3* retarded lobe could be. Mark your distrib body 180 to index cyl #1.
Set your engine up to cyl #1 as if you're gonna adjust the valves.
Look at your distrib and see if installed with the rotor towards #1 that the distrib body will align with the previously mentioned alignment of the drilling and case opening. If not, you can R&R the dog at the bottom of the distrib and see if that works.
Shit, while typing all this out have you considered verifying the idle timing and total timing on cyl's 2 and 4?
Many here to include me will suggest that 35* and 15* at idle are too much. The generic info tends to like 5* to 10* idle and 28* to 32* full advance.
Hope this helps, Bill.

[Dwighia]

ouch.
My bad.
Corrected numbers are:
#1 cylinder 12d @ idle 32d @ 3k rpms
#3 cylinder 15d @ idle 35d @ 3k rpms
Dwight

Bill, sorry to throw you off with the wrong idle numbers and thank you for your response.
I will remove the dizzy and check the alignment of the drilling case opening as suggested.
Will also verify the idle timing on cylinders #2 and #4.

I too am very concerned with the high timing numbers when I look at the #3 cylinder i.e. 35d!. So that is my main motivation to do something quickly.

Bottom line: Maybe I should just buy new dizzy. The device I'm using to measure dwell and RPMs has been giving me a blinking light that indicates a "worn distributor".
Also, when I measured my idle I get numbers in quick succession all over the map, i.e.
818,835,829,812,818,801,830,776,843
Is all this jumping around normal?
I have no idea if this is normal or another indicator that the dizzy is going bad.
_________________
'71 Ghia Sedan
'68 Ghia Convertible
'84 Vanagon
If you dismantle a VW engine and reassemble it enough times, will you end up with enough extra parts for another engine?

[Abscate]

Have the collective " we" done any better than describing " some engines" as having a retarded #3 cylinder or is that all we know about the scope of this?
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.ssS!

[rockerarm]

Dwight. Your corrected numbers show a constant 20* of mechanical advance on the two cylinders. I guess you will check the other two cyl's and see what numbers you have. I guess ideally, dependent on the cyl 2/4, you will be able to have the distrib installed into the case correctly and if one cylinder shows to be retarded 3* it will be the #3 cylinder. Don't get no better than that, as they say. I probably wouldn't run that much initial timing. Idle at between 7* to 10* btdc should yield a happier motor.
I wouldn't replace that distrib based on the idle characteristics. Does it sound smooth/good?
If you don't trust this distrib you should be able to source a used distrib and/or points/condenser to get you home in the event of a failure.
I would assume you are running a dual port engine with the 34PICT carb? If so you may wish to get one of the oil temp dipsticks and see if your engine runs hot. It is a nice $35 tool. I've used them for decades. With monitoring this dipstick and your gas mileage you can look at those numbers and see if the install of a distrib with a vacuum advance will lower the temps and improve the gas mileage.

[busdaddy]

I dealt with one of those on a customers car a few years ago, great top end or great idle, pick one because there was no in between, we went with crappy idle since he spent more time at speed than idling. A real distributor matched to his carb solved the problem.

How are you getting these numbers?, a degree pulley I assume?, have you confirmed the markings on the pulley are accurate?
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[PJMS]

Maybe I have read through all of this too fast but why are you using a distributor with a #3 retard? As mentioned, earlier, it was only used on certain vacuum models and this was because they were vacuum only distributors; has nothing to do with dog-house oil coolers or anything else. It was an anomaly with the advance curve used by these particular distributors which caused the rise in temperature in #3. The mis-information surrounding all of this began back in the late sixties/early seventies and despite much effort to correct this in the early part of this century, there still seems to be some confusion.

[mr. lang]

To contribute to the original content of this thread, here is a copy from the official German workshop manual:

(thanks again to Michael Knappman (rip) for scanning this document and making it public)

#3 lobe is retarded 4° on the distributors marked with 1)

Well, this list is not a complete distributor list and it was discarded by VW in one of the next workshop manual updates. My personal copy does not have this information.
And we will never know, why they didn't copy the retard information to the other distributor lists.


I also found information about a retard lobe for a way later (1980) distributor in a bosch document.
This is about the 0 231 168 039 (same as 0 231 168 038), VW 070 905 205 A

#3 lobe is retarded 2°
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[ashman40]