Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Louder and Hornier
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MootPoint
Samba Member


Joined: September 16, 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Sandia Park, NM
MootPoint is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Louder and Hornier Reply with quote

I snagged a pair of horns off an '85 Mercedes at the local U-Pull last week and want to replace my weak, quacking original horn in my '84. I know I need to add/change a relay to cover the increased voltage requirement but I'm at a loss of how to proceed, what relay I need, where it goes, and what changes in wiring I need to do to make the new dual horns work.

Modifications to the fuse panel and relays are a mystery to me. I had a relay added when I upgraded the headlights but a shop did that for me and I'm a dork when it comes to electrical stuff so I need some lessons. Any volunteers?

Thanks.
_________________
1984 Westy with tencentlife power!
http://www.silverrailsleadville.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 11153
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure you need to add a relay? How much do you plan to honk your horn? From memory the vanagon horn gets power with the key on and when you depress the horn button, you complete the ground to the horn and it beeps. I don't think you can damage the electrical system by using the mercedes horns. You just need to verify they have both a ground and power terminal. If they have only one, then the horns ground through their mounting and you will need to adapt a relay. A simple common 4 connector relay would work. Or if you were adding air horns with a compressor you might add a relay.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI conversion.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro conversion. Offers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
T3 Pilot
Samba Member


Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1347
Location: Deep South of the Great White North
T3 Pilot is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

www.haywood-sullivan.com/vanagon/dual_horns_wiring_diagram.gif
_________________
1988 Vanagon

The most important part in every vehicle is the nut behind the wheel......
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Captain Pike
Samba Member


Joined: December 30, 2003
Posts: 2921
Location: The Topless Bar On Mustafar
Captain Pike is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Side note:If your IG switch has failed and you have no dash power. Jump the horn + (hot) to the running lights + turn them on and you can remote power the dash. Cool
_________________
Parrots,parrots everywhere but none ever stopped to think.
GET A FRAKIN BENTLEY__ Don't post without one.
In the time it takes to post___learning your BENT and trying a solution???WTF?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MootPoint
Samba Member


Joined: September 16, 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Sandia Park, NM
MootPoint is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
Are you sure you need to add a relay? How much do you plan to honk your horn? From memory the vanagon horn gets power with the key on and when you depress the horn button, you complete the ground to the horn and it beeps. I don't think you can damage the electrical system by using the mercedes horns. You just need to verify they have both a ground and power terminal. If they have only one, then the horns ground through their mounting and you will need to adapt a relay. A simple common 4 connector relay would work. Or if you were adding air horns with a compressor you might add a relay.

Well, I thought so too but when I hooked them up (two wires, a brown - I assume ground - and a black/yellow) to the original horn wiring on the Westy (same colors except the brown is a bit darker) and hit the horn they only gave an anemic bleat, not the thunderous blast when I benched tested the pair on 12v. I'm assuming that means they aren't getting enough juice through the original circuit to power both Merc horns at the same time. Or am I missing something?
_________________
1984 Westy with tencentlife power!
http://www.silverrailsleadville.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
1621
Samba Member


Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2174

1621 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you'll definitely require a relay to power the new horns, the stock wiring is limiting the requisite number of amps. The good news, adding a relay is actually quite simple, only requiring running two new wires and a fuse. The original wires will connect to pins 85 & 86 on the relay (they'll be clearly labeled). One of the new wires will run from the battery (or suitable 12v source) to pin 30 and should have an inline fuse. The second new wire will run from pin 87 to the new horns. The horns will likely have their own ground through bolting to the body, or if not, you can create a ground pathway with a ground wire from the horn to the body. Really simple, and there are dozens of diagrams on the net to provide visuals. Have fun, and please post an audio clip when they're finished!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
'85 Westy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member


Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 8068
Location: Orbiting San Diego
crazyvwvanman is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need a relay. Also, YOU NEED A relay!!!!


The problem isn't the power feed to the horn. The weak spot is the ground wire path to the horn button. That path is weak and gets weaker with age. The relay gives that path a much easier load to carry.

Mark


MootPoint wrote:
rsxsr wrote:
Are you sure you need to add a relay? How much do you plan to honk your horn? From memory the vanagon horn gets power with the key on and when you depress the horn button, you complete the ground to the horn and it beeps.....

Well, I thought so too but when I hooked them up (two wires, a brown - I assume ground - and a black/yellow) to the original horn wiring on the Westy (same colors except the brown is a bit darker) and hit the horn they only gave an anemic bleat, not the thunderous blast when I benched tested the pair on 12v. I'm assuming that means they aren't getting enough juice through the original circuit to power both Merc horns at the same time. Or am I missing something?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
psych-illogical
Samba Member


Joined: October 14, 2004
Posts: 1181
Location: AZ
psych-illogical is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1621 wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'll be the first to admit that I too am a little bit weak when it comes to electrical stuff. I did, however, notice that there's a fundamental difference between this wiring diagram and the one in the haywood-sullivan.com link a few posts up. That is, in this diagram the contacting of the relay completes the 12V positive line between the battery and the horn. In the other diagram the relay completes the ground line between the horn and the ground. My sense of electrical logic says that this shouldn't make any difference but inquiring minds want to know... does it matter?
_________________
83 1/2 Westy waterboxer
'57 Beetle-sold Sad
Coupla '81 BMW motorcycles (R80G/S; R100RS)
'96 BMW R1100GS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Sir Sam
Samba Member


Joined: July 19, 2009
Posts: 1667
Location: Fort Collins Colorado!
Sir Sam is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psych-illogical wrote:
does it matter?


No.
_________________
'91 Carat Westy

87' Syncro + '87 Westy conversion coming soon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 11153
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can use a standard relay to switch power or ground. Another poster stated that it was the ground through the horn button causing the poor performance. If that is the case, you would leave the 12 plus power alone and then wire the relay to pass a ground when activated by the horn button. So using the diagram below, 30 would be to a good chassis ground. 87 would go to the ground wire to the horns. The original ground wire from the horns would get plugged on to 86 or 85 and the one not used would have key on power.

So, when you press the horn button, the relay energizes completing the circuit between 30 and 87 grounding the horns and they should blow.

If the problem is not the ground as suggested, then you would wire the relay as it is in the diagram.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI conversion.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro conversion. Offers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member


Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 8068
Location: Orbiting San Diego
crazyvwvanman is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That diagram is not especially suitable for a horn relay on a Vanagon. Keep it simple and get the job done while keeping things as stock as is practical. Use a relay triggered by the horn button ground. Use the stock horn power feed setup to power the relay and new horn(s). Done it several times, some recently. IF you are installing a major horn upgrade setup THEN think about a new more direct power feed. Adding typical dual horns like those in other European makes and models doesn't require a different power feed, just a different and more direct ground. The stock horn ground is the weak spot in our vans. Where have I heard that before?

Mark


rsxsr wrote:
You can use a standard relay to switch power or ground. Another poster stated that it was the ground through the horn button causing the poor performance. If that is the case, you would leave the 12 plus power alone and then wire the relay to pass a ground when activated by the horn button. So using the diagram below, 30 would be to a good chassis ground. 87 would go to the ground wire to the horns. The original ground wire from the horns would get plugged on to 86 or 85 and the one not used would have key on power.

So, when you press the horn button, the relay energizes completing the circuit between 30 and 87 grounding the horns and they should blow.

If the problem is not the ground as suggested, then you would wire the relay as it is in the diagram.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
thatvwbusguy
Samba Member


Joined: April 18, 2007
Posts: 1701
Location: Newmarket, New Hampshire
thatvwbusguy is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just added a horn relay kit to my website, many thanks to Mark (crazyvwvanman) for the inspiration. Details can be found here:

https://sites.google.com/site/vanagonheadlightrelays/horn-relay

I added one to my '85 Westy this afternoon and the difference is very noticeable even with the anemic stock horn. This should do the trick for any standard horn (or dual horns) you would want to add to your van.
_________________
Jay Brown
'85 Zetec Westfalia
Newmarket, NH
VANAGON HEADLIGHT RELAYS & HARD START RELAYS

If you want others to be happy, practice compassion.
If you want to be happy, practice compassion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
VanWilder
Samba Member


Joined: October 09, 2009
Posts: 1349
Location: PDX-Weird Town, USA
VanWilder is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a purist when it comes to the sound of a VW horn. I think it speaks
volumes to here the nice BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! of the OEM.

Off topic I know,, sorry.
_________________
VW
________________________
"83.5" Vanagon GL Air cooled "VanWilder"
VanWilder has given back to me more then I could ever put into it September 22, 2010
Malama Ka `AinaŚ"Respect the Land"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
crazyvwvanman
Samba Member


Joined: January 28, 2008
Posts: 8068
Location: Orbiting San Diego
crazyvwvanman is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louder dual horns were stock on many VWs. To stay pure, get a set of those!

Mark


VanWilder wrote:
I am a purist when it comes to the sound of a VW horn. I think it speaks
volumes to here the nice BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP! of the OEM.

Off topic I know,, sorry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
J Charlton Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: August 24, 2007
Posts: 1432
Location: The True North Strong and Free
J Charlton is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: electrical basics - including relays Reply with quote

You may want to check out http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=445519&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 for an ongoing thread on 12v electrical basics - the same material is available at http://northamericanhightops.com as well on the pages "other useful stuff"
_________________
NAHT hightop availability Sept 2019
Buena Vista Co 4 (2 available) Staunton Va.5 (0 available) Salt Lake City 6 (3 available)Kennewick Wa (1 available - paint grade) Nova Scotia (1 available)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
teej
Samba Member


Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 783
Location: Seattle
teej is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:29 am    Post subject: horn relay Reply with quote

Thanks to this thread, especially crazyvwvanman and thatvwbusguy, we now have a horn that is loud enough and sounds vw.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


New stock horn from van cafe
relay and wiring harness kit from thatvwbusguy
_________________
1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.1 WBX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
r39o
Samba Polizei


Joined: May 18, 2005
Posts: 9548
Location: San Diego
r39o is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice idea, but I would NEVER put a relay out in the elements like that......
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!
1990 Multivan EJ 22 running well...

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 9323
Location: Port Manteau
Zeitgeist 13 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concur ^ Time to wrap that rascal. Someone here came up with a cool idea for a weather resistant electrical box by using some form of tupperware with the clasping tops...or better yet, just relocate the relay under the dash.
_________________
Casey--
Seven VW vans from T1 through T4 since 1985
Volkswagens powered by Volkswagen
Respect the marque
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
teej
Samba Member


Joined: November 26, 2010
Posts: 783
Location: Seattle
teej is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: weather: Yep, I'm wondering about this too. I just installed it yesterday, certainly works now and I like the simplicity/proximity but I have been scheming about some way to seal it.

OTOH, is it possible that location is actually a relatively sheltered spot that doesn't see much moisture? It seems like a good quality "weather resistant" relay by Scosche. Of course there are the unprotected connections at the relay harness.

Any others ideas/experiences?
_________________
1986+ Wolfsburg Weekender Pop-Top 2.1 WBX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 11153
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a horn, not a fuel injection relay. It cost what $10? Use it as is. If it is problematic then deal with a more ideal location. It is not like you would be left stranded.

I have done a lot of mods to my Vanagon. I am always hestitant to post my work, because of the criticism some of my work might receive. You had a dilema, you posted here for help, you came up with solution and are reporting back. Good job in my opinion.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI conversion.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro conversion. Offers?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB