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10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlife)
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sanchius Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:40 am    Post subject: 10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlife) Reply with quote

I just replaced my flywheel seal & o-ring (87 syncro manual) and upon reassembly, it still leaked.
I didn't do the best job of seating it, so it may be my fault. I'll be ordering another today.
It may also be one of the oil gallery plugs, I'll be sealing those as well.

I'm checking everything and one discrepancy I found is that while our experienced wbx builder, tencentlife. says the correct flywheel seal is 12mm deep (http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=286798&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=65),
bostonbob, another respected wbx builder, states strongly that the 12mm is for the automatic and the 10mm must be used for the manual trans
(at 16:25 in his video http://www.bostig.com/files/bostonbob&bostig-proper_wbxflywheel_install.wmv).

Gowesty's flywheel seal writeup (http://vanagonusedparts.com/library_article.php?id=535) shows a thicker flywheel seal and the one I received from them was 12mm

So, which should it be, 10mm or 12mm?
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to ETKA the seal number is 029 105 245. They specify the same part number for both the flywheel and flexplate. I would say you need to look at the sealing surface on your flywheel. Over time a groove will form and not help the seal to seal. Going with a different thickness seal might help to relocate the sealing surface. Sorry ETKA does not give the dimensions.
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85_Westy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My experience has been ... it's a crapshoot as to whether you'll get a 10mm or a 12mm seal when you order as the part number is the same.

That said, you want a 10mm for a manual transmission and the seal should be countersunk ... not left flush. Leaving it flush will cause the flywheel to rub and destroy the seal.

I usually stay away from dealers, but, their crankshaft seal has a larger spring and is a better seal than the aftermarket types.

The 12mm works fine with an automatic.

Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, only one P/N here. The hubs of the driveplate and flywheel are dimensionally identical. I watched that video of the estimable Mr. Donalds awhile back and I can't recall him specifying any difference, but if he did I would have to respectfully disagree.

The OEM seal is the one with 12mm shell depth, and you should use that one or at the least another like it with 12mm if you can. You've probably seen it already but on this page I describe a few brands and their differences:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...p;start=40

rsxr is dead-on, when a mainseal is changed and still leaks it's usually due to a groove worn in the FW hub sealing area. Repositioning the seal to a new running surface is an option, by using a diferent depth seal, but I prefer instead to recondition the hub by abrading the groove away and then polishing the surface. It's time-consuming, but worthwhile when the alternative is a new FW or driveplate. Firstly, if you can drag and catch your fingernail in the groove, it's too far gone and you'd best look for a replacement. If it's lighter than that the FW can be rigged up on a spinning jig of some kind, and abraded with progressively finer grades of emery cloth, beginning with 40 or 80 and stepping gradually up to at least 1200 grit. Use lots of WD40 as a lubricant and cleaner on the abrasive papers. Final clean with a generous dousing of WD and a clean soft rag, and polish with a buffer and jeweler's rouge or a Skotchbrite pad. Clean, clean, clean. Lightly oil the seal lip and the entire hub sealing area right before final assembly.
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85_Westy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should have been more clear in my post and said, If using "Aftermarket" seals, use the 10mm for standard transmissions.

The OEM seal is indeed 12mm but has a larger spring and a slightly different profile than the 12mm aftermarket ones and, therefore, works better.

Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: 10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlif Reply with quote

sanchius wrote:
I just replaced my flywheel seal & o-ring (87 syncro manual) and upon reassembly, it still leaked.
I didn't do the best job of seating it, so it may be my fault. I'll be ordering another today.
It may also be one of the oil gallery plugs, I'll be sealing those as well.



Mmm... how are you sure it's the seal?

Ben
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Volksbulli
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would the difference between the 10 and 12 mm seals allow the sealing lip of the seal to ride in a different area? I know sometimes a seal lip wears a minor groove into the sealing surface after many many miles. The different depth would let the seal lip to rid in a fresh area.

If anyone has any experience with with Domestic V-8 Engines when replacing the front crank seal you pull the Harmonic Balancer off , replace the seal, there is a thing called a sleeve n' seal which it a very thin metal sleeve that slips over the the sealing surface of the balancer, secured with loctite, allowing a fresh surface to ride on.

I don't think such a sleeve is made for WBX flywheel or flexplates.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked my machinist about turning down the flywheel and fitting a sleeve; he judged that impractical vs. just getting a new FW. I've had great results with the sanding/polishing procedure I described; takes about an hour to do one. If the groove is too deep to do it, though, another FW or driveplate is the most productive path, either new or a better used one that you can successfully clean up.

Using a different seal depth to cause the lip to ride on a different area sounds good in theory, but I think results in practice are very spotty at best. I wouldn't count on that approach to produce a dry engine, it will mainly make you an expert at removing trannies.

Ben is right that you also have to look very carefully for other sources of leakage. Many engines that weep oil down their fronts have perfect FW sealing, but seep from the front main galley plug, or even one of the small plugs, although those leak rarely. Even the cam endplug can be the source. Once the oil sprays around in there it's very difficult to ascertain which is which, but hopefully you can study the traces and come to a conclusion. Pulling the galley plug and tapping for a threaded replacement is doable in the car, with care. If you can make out radial oil staining from the rear-side hub of the FW, then it's the mainseal for sure, but most times the oil has sprayed around so much that that kind of telltale has been overwhelmed by the oily miasma. It helps to hold the FW up in bright light and look at it from a low angle; the oiled areas will throw a glare and you can sometimes make out where the oil is emanating from.

If the FW hub o-ring is the leak source, you will have an oily clutch disc, possibly with dripping from the bellhousing if it is pretty severe, but definitely with telltale traces of oily spray radiating from the inner-side hub of the FW. That is the one that's easy to be sure about once you have it apart.
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Hmmm, provincial much?:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: 10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlif Reply with quote

ftp2leta wrote:


Mmm... how are you sure it's the seal?

Ben


Thank for all the great information.

It was such a mess in there that I can't say that I am 100% sure that it is the seal.

The seal/o-ring are wear items, so they are the 1st suspects and automatically get replaced. The leak was worse after I put the new seal in, but, I wasn't happy with how I seated the new seal. A few missed whacks with the hammer, trying to seat it deeper than it probably needed to be, slighted distorted the metal frame.

However, that doesn't mean that one of the plugs isn't the source of the original leak, so I will also be jbwelding the plugs as per your pic at: http://www.benplace.com/79beige/79beige23.jpg

Fortunately, the flywheel doesn't have any wear grooves from the previous seal and one of the local vanagon places traded me shims to get the endplay into spec.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: 10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlif Reply with quote

sanchius wrote:
ftp2leta wrote:


Mmm... how are you sure it's the seal?

Ben


Thank for all the great information.

It was such a mess in there that I can't say that I am 100% sure that it is the seal.

The seal/o-ring are wear items, so they are the 1st suspects and automatically get replaced. The leak was worse after I put the new seal in, but, I wasn't happy with how I seated the new seal. A few missed whacks with the hammer, trying to seat it deeper than it probably needed to be, slighted distorted the metal frame.

However, that doesn't mean that one of the plugs isn't the source of the original leak, so I will also be jbwelding the plugs as per your pic at: http://www.benplace.com/79beige/79beige23.jpg

Fortunately, the flywheel doesn't have any wear grooves from the previous seal and one of the local vanagon places traded me shims to get the endplay into spec.


When i look at the picture i jump out of my seat! i don't even know i had this one... he he he.

JB's or Aluminum putty are great quick fix, not to say that they will hold for ever. But to be honest, they do hold fine Smile

The right way would of course to tap a new threaded plug.

But i'm real honest to tell you that i did those patch more then once, mostly to help folks with low budjet or travelling in Quebec.

Starting 2005, i did that patch on all engine (even the none leaking one) i had to work on, i still work on many of those van today, believe it or not, those patch are holding fine.

I prefer the expensive Aluminum putty. The surface need to be super clean and a bit abrasive so the putty can get a good grip.

Cheers, Ben
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlif Reply with quote

After setting the endplay, JBwelding the oil plugs with a 24hr setup time, installing the new FW main seal and putting it all back together, it still leaked badly within seconds...

So, I pulled it all back apart again. The new FW seal looked fine and the JBwelded plugs are all still sealed.

After comparing the leaked oil with engine & trans oil samples, the leak is coming from the engine.

What I'm thinking is:
- o-ring not sealing (should be OK since it's new from GoWesty)
- case halves leaking at the interface
- excessive crank case pressure (it's feeling alot like this: http://gerry.vanagon.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0601A&L=vanagon&D=0&P=22813 )

So, I'll take the flywheel & o-ring to one of the local shops to check out,
put a bead of jbweld along the case seam,
replace the soft breather hose,
and do it again.

Can you think of anything else I'm missing?


(This job is making me a huge fan of those blue HarborFreight nitrile gloves.)
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: 10mm or 12mm flywheel seal for manual? (attn: tencentlife) Reply with quote

so I too had to wonder about Boston Bob's comment in the Boston Bob/Bostig video.

Have the "royal we" decided that a 12 mm thick oil seal is the one to use on the manual transmission WBX ?

And, if one smooths out a minor groove at FW hub, wouldn't that make it harder for the ID of seal to seal to FW? Or, since that seal ID is flexible, does it still butt up against the FW hub even after removal of material? i.e. if the minor groove was left as-is, it would damage the ID of seal sooner? (there is always some crank end play)

Does the ID of seal constantly rub against the FW hub? It seems to me it would. I find it amazing that it doesn't wear out asap.

Thanks,

Neil.
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