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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:35 am Post subject: Re: AN fuel ine |
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Jim Bear wrote: |
Does anyone have experience with AN fuel line. The sizes are give in a strange manner, like -6AN. I found this stuff on the Jegs website and it seems that the lines attach to the various locations via specially made fittings. Is this something any out there has used? Is it solely a racing application? |
It depends on what is under the SS sheath. Some have significantly more alcohol resistance and/or are designed for higher pressures than others. For all I know the teflon lined AN hose is fine, but do some checking. I ran AN hose for a while and then did a test to see how it handled fire and was unimpressed as 30r9 hose proved to have significantly better fire resistance than the AN hose. The AN hose I tested was not teflon hose though.
A -3AN hose would be 3/16" in nominal diameter while a -6AN hose would be 6/16" (3/8") in nominal diameter. The exact dimensions vary a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer. |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'd be curious to know how you determined a rubber hose was better at resisting fire than stainless steel and teflon. _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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Mr. Unpopular Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2005 Posts: 3715 Location: Tampa Florida
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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I never said it was stainless steel hose. I asked how rubber would be better at resisting fire than stainless steel and teflon, which is a commonly available product.
How many cooking products are made of rubber? How many are made of stainless steel and coated in teflon? _________________ "In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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First off I said this "The AN hose I tested was not teflon hose though", as the AN hose I tested was rubber hose with a SS braid over it and not a SS covered Teflon hose.
I cut equal lengths of several different hose and suspended them in a "U" shape. I added a set amount of gas to each hose and then positioned each hose in turn over an open flame and used a stop watch to see how long it would take to burn through the hose and ignite the gas inside. I did this to several different hoses, 30r7, 30r9, marine fuel hose, and the AN hose. All the hoses had the same nominal size, though the marine hose was thicker walled and thus had a larger OD. I had few expectations for anything but the marine hose and the AN hose which I expected to do well, and was quite surprised when both the marine and AN hose burnt through in about the same time as the 30r7 hose, while the 30r9 handled the flame for several times as long. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21520 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone gets this idea that stainless hose must be superior because....its sheathed in stainless.
That may be very far from the truth. Having worked on a LARGE amount of CIS injection....75-135 psi all day long.....I can tell you that the ONLY reason they used the stainless braid was to have external abrasion resistance to keep vibration from weakening the outer plies.
If you weaken an outer ply...it allows a bubble to push outward from the inside and it will split the outside and burst.
The braided lines have only marginally higher burst pressure because the braid bolsters the hose inside and keeps the hose from swelling during pressure excursions...important with CIS...because main line pressure was high but control and feed pressure was variable.
Inside the braided lines was the exact same fuel hose that you had in the cotton braided lines.
I would not use teflon core fuel lines. Teflon has crappy impact resistance...virtually no kink resistance ....and a much less bend radius allowance. In short ...teflon is brittle and easily cracked. You would have to clamp the lines down in runs so that bend radius and vibration were controlled.
I see no advantage whatsoever to teflon fuel lines. There are some advantages as noted for stainlless covered rubber fuel lines.....but these days with standard fuel injection pressures being far less than CIS fuel injection pressure....there is no real need. Abrasion resistance yes......but the real worry these days is internal chemical resistance.
Yes...teflon has that....but the risks of cracks far outweigh the usefulness of its chemical resistance.
If you want high pressure and chemical resistance and are afraid of rubber...simply look at what the factories are doing. Go to nylon lines. No fuels will touch them, highly abrasion resistance, great bend radius, higher pressures than rubber....equal to teflon in that respect....and cheap as dirt.
Ray |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:50 pm Post subject: Fuel hose Gates Barricade Fuel line |
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Link
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[url=http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7665204#7665204]Fuel hose Gates Barricade Fuel line[/url] |
Gates 27348 Barricade Fuel Injection Hose (MPI) Exceeds SAE J30R14T2 (except for kink resistance)
5/16 inch=0.3125"=7.9375 mm
O'reilly's has it in
1/4 Part # 27347
5/16 Part # 27348
3/8 Part # 27349
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search.oap?keyword=bulk+fuel+hose
I find it ineresting Gates does not recommend using the 30R7 hose for a return line.
Hope it helps
Tcash
Last edited by Tcash on Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Bear Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2006 Posts: 670 Location: Watkinsville, GA
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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'74 bus, stock dual carbs and everything else. I am planning on going with the following Gates Barricade hoses:
for the 5mm, the 3/16": http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/GATY/2731...;ppt=C0222
For the 7mm, the 5/16":http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/GATY/2731...;ppt=C0222
Question, am I right? _________________ "You're either on the bus, or you're off the bus." ~kk
'85 Vanagon Westy - George In the Stable 2020-?/'74 Weekender - Ophelia In the Stable 2007- ?/'69 Beetle Convertible - SOLD 2017-2020/'67 Beetle - September SOLD 2013-2016 /'67 SO42 Westy - Sage SOLD 1996-2001 /'69 Transporter - Baby Blue SOLD 1995-1995/'72 Westy - Nelly - SOLD 1990-1995--STOP FRACKING |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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5/16" = 8mm, you may be better off with 1/4" if you want a tight fit. 1/4" fits loosely on the smaller fittings but does clamp down OK, 3/16" would definitely be better. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Schwing Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2009 Posts: 2506 Location: Centreville, MD
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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I am about to buy some low pressure gates barricade for my 72 that will eventually have dual carbs once I build the motor.
Ratwell calls for the following:
5.5mm - 4.2'
7mm - 14.2"
Given bus daddy's recommendation sounds like I need to buy a couple feet of 1/4" and about 5' of the 3/16"? |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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schwing, the dual carbs you chose and if you are using an electric fuel pump may dictate the fuel hose size. Also the electric pumps location. Why not use as much metal line as possible so you can reduce the cost of the hose replacement, as hose replacement will be a maintenance issue.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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Just finished a FI replumb using the Gates Barricade FI hose. Some notes, probably applicable to the non-FI hose:
Good points:
- there is NO gas smell using this hose. It definitely does not allow any fume penetration.
- the 225 psi rating is way more than needed for a FI system. It handles the fuel pressure very well.
- the hose seems quite durable, and I wouldn't worry about accidental hose damage from minor impacts, etc. [That said, I would definitely protect it from sharp cutting edges. But then again, I'd do that with any hose...]
Bad points:
- it has a tendency to kink on small bend radiuses (radii?) (like from the injector to the metal distribution pipes, and at the cold start valve).
- it cannot take fuel on its outer covering very well. I had a slow leak at the fuel pump (operator error...) By the time I caught it, the outer covering was noticeably swollen and gummy. Had to cut the hose back and reattach to repair. Makes me wonder how grease / oil will affect the outer covering, long term.
- it definitely needs the proper clamps - not the cheap worm screw things they sell at the FLAPS. Don't cheap out on this detail. "Buy the best and cry once..."
- the hose is pretty stiff - it does not stretch or compress too well (i.e. it fits what it fits). If you need to plumb between two different size hose barbs, use two different hose sizes and couple using a (buy / make) metal hose adapter (see this post). Don't try to squash it down with a hose clamp (especially on high pressure FI systems).
- it is a shame that they don't make this stuff in true metric sizes.
Bottom line: when used within its limitations, this hose works well, and I would recommend it over the old fabric covered hose in a heartbeat. Just be aware of what it likes and doesn't like. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Hoody Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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My experience has been that this fuel line is the ONLY go to fuel line. No there are no metric sizes....but on my 78
Everything is within a mm of fitting perfectly. I would also advise anyone who Is switching over to this to just buy the FI hose and be done with it. Regardless if your running carbs or not. ABA clamps are absolutely paramount to long term success. |
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Schwing Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2009 Posts: 2506 Location: Centreville, MD
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:01 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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Hoody wrote: |
My experience has been that this fuel line is the ONLY go to fuel line. No there are no metric sizes....but on my 78
Everything is within a mm of fitting perfectly. I would also advise anyone who Is switching over to this to just buy the FI hose and be done with it. Regardless if your running carbs or not. ABA clamps are absolutely paramount to long term success. |
I'm seeing ABA clamps on Amazon for as little as $10 for a 10pack. Good recommendation thanks. I can only assume 10 is plenty for any bus, carb or FI. Sound right? |
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obnoxiousblue Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2007 Posts: 2946 Location: East Northport, NY
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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Depends on the bus' engine. My 2.0 FI needed way more than 10.
Figure the fuel tank to the pump (2) pump to drivers side fuel rail (2) rail to each injector (4) tail to CSV 2, CSV to pass side fuel rail (2), pass side fuel rail to each injector (4), fuel rail to regulator (2), to return (2).
I just woke up, and only half thought through what I'm typing, so apologies if I left something off. _________________ Mike
1964 Beetle
2001 Eurovan Camper |
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Schwing Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2009 Posts: 2506 Location: Centreville, MD
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:09 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line - Quality, Makers, Sizes |
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obnoxiousblue wrote: |
Depends on the bus' engine. My 2.0 FI needed way more than 10.
Figure the fuel tank to the pump (2) pump to drivers side fuel rail (2) rail to each injector (4) tail to CSV 2, CSV to pass side fuel rail (2), pass side fuel rail to each injector (4), fuel rail to regulator (2), to return (2).
I just woke up, and only half thought through what I'm typing, so apologies if I left something off. |
Alright that's what I'm talking about. So maybe 2 x 10pack for FI and 1 x 10pack for carb. I will go outside and count and update here. |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQS |
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When I did mine, I used Oetiker 5/8" (15.7mm) 167 series single ear clamps (Amazon), with just enough removable clamps so that major components (injectors, CSV, regulator, etc.) could be disassembled for service. The ear clamps are much smaller and easier to work around. The only time the ear clamps would need to be removed is for a total hose replacement. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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alikatcraig Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2007 Posts: 556 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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I have seen 5mm ID/7mm OD nylon fuel line as Ray mentioned. Material is PA11 and at $11 for 5 meters it is CHEAP. Does anyone have experience with its longevity though? _________________ 1967 Ghia
1971 Deluxe Microbus
1974 Convertible Bug
1973 Standard Bug
1998 Mexican Bug |
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Vova Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2015 Posts: 269 Location: Los Gatos CA
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Hoody Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007 Posts: 1948
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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Don't bother buying a kit. All you need is the correct size Gates Barricade for each of your applications. I did the entire system in FI Gates Barricade. I can't remember the size hose. I did everything from the evap system to all of the fuel lines underneath. The only hose if I remember correctly that isn't available through Gates is the the fuel pump to filter. Ratwell shows all of the sizes needed. Buy the correct ABA clamps. Be especially aware of the hose behind the drivers side rear wheel well. This is often over looked. The hose isn't expensive nor are the correct clamps. Do it correctly and you have piece of mind knowing your set up is much better then it was originally. |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Line Fuel hose - Quality, Makers, Sizes FAQ |
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thnx to mayor ratwell
Fuel hoses
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FuelHoses.html
IIRC one of the hose clamps is the wrong size. So confirm the clamp sizes.
Tcash |
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