Trigger Wheels

[piledriver]

For an inexpensive, very common off-the-shelf steel gear that will fit in an 009 (for DIY attempts)
is 36mm diameter, nice coarse gear, should work with a variety of small gear tooth sensors, VR and Hall.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Integy-Traxxas-Revo-2-5-3-...2ecb589662

This will not work with EDIS at cam speed, but will work with MS and other systems that support 36-1 cam speed wheels.
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[jarred]

The steel I'm using for the gear costs about $0.50, but the cnc cycle time is around 25 minutes and there's tool wear. Thanks for the tip. I'll check my model and see if I can fit something like that in there.

[ravivos]

[supersuk]

Find one that is similar in size or larger than the compressor pulley. The trigger wheel should have a center hole that is big enough for just the bolt to go through. You should try to find a trigger wheel that has openings to allow air to pass through. Good luck.
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68 Fastback Build: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5396323#5396323

[piledriver]

Ravivos: Note the "punt" option mentioned above.
(realized previous post may not have been clear)

If you are not locked into running EDIS ignition, you can run a distributor based trigger setup.
Currently Redline Weber sells a VR based 24-1 009 based setup, I suspect one or more distributor-based Hall sensor setups are being worked on...'

An X-1 wheel (where X >8 and x/2 is even) will allow sequential operation with one sensor on MS2, ms3, and many other systems.
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[ravivos]

[piledriver]

Unfortunately any EDIS-based ignition will only work with a 36-1 wheel at crank speed.
Some folks have actually machined the 36-1 pattern into the engine side of their flywheels and installed the sensor in the back transmission flange,

(a hole looks the same as a tooth to the sensor)

Flywheel "wheels" work fine, I ran a 6/1 setup in my DD for a couple years only using the factory vent holes for the clutch that line up with the pressure late bolts and a one-tooth distributor. (6/1 with MS2 and MS3, supposedly will work with MS1, never tried it)
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[ravivos]

[jarred]

If megajolt is anything like megasquirt, you should be able to trigger two coils either directly or off of a coil driver circuit and logic signals (not hard to build). You only need two drivers for wasted spark. Issues with mounting wheels in various places or for those not interested in machining flywheels is exactly why I put the trigger wheel and sensor in the distributor. Although, for performance applications its still better to time off the crank.

[voeltzwagen]

I would like to keep my A/C pulley, as well. Jarred's distributor set-up is starting to look like my best (simplest) solution...
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1973 Squareback, AT, A/C, FI

[piledriver]

You can buy a 72 tooth wheel you can turn into a 72-2 (with the missing teeth 180 out) so edis is happy, but it wont fit in a 009. Sometimes you can get a Mallory unilite with a blown module cheap, the old ones are made well, it will all easily fit in a mallory.
(although you are pretty much on your own finding a sensor, the Honda unit might work)

I built a hall sensor assy with the caps and pullups encased in 5 minute epoxy and stuffed it in a short bit of 3/8" tubing.

the trick was the sensor didn't like a ground-out missing tooth--- it wanted to see a filled gap, worked great then.

I used an allegro `667 and surface mount caps and resistor.
it will work on 32 pitch rc steel gears. like for nitro powered rc trucks.
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[jarred]

I'm building my first run of 10 of the distributor based trigger systems. Price is $120 shipped inside the US. It's a cap with a wheel inside and a Hall effect sensor. You can pull the sensor up to either 12 volts, or 5 volts for standard logic level output. Wheel is a 24-2 which mimics a 12-1 on the crank. Will work with megasquirt or megajolt, just make sure your firmware supports a 12-1 trigger wheel option. Doesn't require any of the crazy megasquirt sensor conditioning circuits like the VR sensors do.

I don't think the Redline system will work out of the box. 24-1 can be used for sequential triggering, but I don't think it will work as an ignition trigger for wasted spark. You could probably file off the opposite tooth to make a 24-2. But, I couldn't find any info on the Redline product, except that it might be part of their complete FI system setup. Anyone know anything about it?

[piledriver]

Like many of Lances products you have to ask him to find out anything.

Your version will be more effective and cost ~1/3 what he currently asks for his VR sensor setup, that works on far fewer ecus w/o mods.

The redline vr setup will work out of the box on any MS2-extra setup or MS3 if you have a VR conditioner, onboard or otherwise.
So will yours, including v2.2 board based setups, as long as the opto circuit is set up correctly.
5v pullup differs from 12v pullup differs from std. coil input.
A good VR circuit needs a small input capacitor to create a fake VR signal at most.

The single missing tooth at cam speed supports fully sequential or waste spark on MS2-extra or MS3.
(sequential fuel and waste spark is a very common setup as it saves 2 I/Os for other things, and MS2E lacks the per cylinder ignition timing trim MS3 has anyway, and needs all the spare I/O it can get)

You can switch back and forth if you like software setting, has been supported for quite some time, just not well known as everyone is all "OMG crank trigger ...."

Crank trigger DOES matter some if you have a Chevy V6/V8 or such, although a high count toothed wheel in a distributor can average the slop out quite a bit.
(might work best with >24-1, most V8 distributors can easily fit a 72 tooth 32 pitch wheel, even a 009 can take a 48 or maybe even a 60 or 62, 72 no bueno)

An ACVW distributor speed wheel-based setup works just fine if the distributor drive setup is not horked up, we dont have the distributor also driving the oil pump all usually driven by a loose timing chain...

I'm running a 36-2 (the 2 are together) because I ground a tooth off and had to fix with weld.. still legal wheel pattern.
The proposed 24-2 "faux crank wheel pattern" with opposed missing teeth does no one a favor as it can only do waste spark.

Not sure if MS1 supports it, have not tried.
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[jarred]

Who is Lance and what was I supposed to ask him?

Thanks for the info. I've only worked with MS1extra boxes. MS1extra supports a 12-1 crank trigger, doesn't run sequential as far as I know. So, the 24-2 will work with MS1extra, sounds like it'll work with MS2e and MS3.

I can obviously have wheels cut to any geometry, but I am just trying to offer a simple and aeshetically unobtrusive solution to gain control of timing which installs with minimum time and effort. Other than fuel economy, I don't see much point in supporting sequential injection. Maybe you can convince me otherwise?

An outfit local to me sells VR setups for the type 1 http://thedubshop.goodsie.com/ignition Slightly cheaper but still requires machining a pulley and frankly I don't find VR sensors to be as elegant as a Hall sensor.

CB also offers a couple of VR products: http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=7074 which doesn't claim to work with anything but their system, although given it outputs something, it's likely it'll work with MS in some capacity. Also, http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2093 effective but ugly and only for the type 1.

One more FYI in support of keeping it simple: the new Beetle/Golf 2.0 coil pack fires on 2 (wasted spark) logic signals, VAG part 032905106B/032905106E. So no need to bother with coil drivers. Connect to IgnA, IgnB, switched power and ground. Around $25 on ebay.

[piledriver]

Lance AKA "redline weber" or "pantera EFI" depending on where he's posting, you asked where to find information on his VR trigger 009 setup.

I suppose as long as you don't cut the opposing tooth off it can still works for everyone.
Anyone still running MS1 can file off the second tooth.

I suspect MS1 will need the faux crank wheel pattern and a second cam trigger to do sequential ignition rather then just the single cam speed wheel like MS2E and MS3 support, but I asked on MSextra MS1 support forum anyway.

It's still a lot closer to plug-and play than anything else.

[piledriver]

I'm getting conflicting answers to the 24-1 or 36-1 at cam speed MS1 question, a developer says he thinks it works, as well as Matt Cramer from DIYAutotune...
Yet another lister says no bueno.

I think I still have an MS1 CPU somewhere, will try it myself to be sure.
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[jarred]

I see, the issue is a 24-2 on the distributor (12-1 on crank) is only good for wasted spark which maybe isn't attractive those using COP's? Can't you tie the COP's together and run them wasted? What would be the disadvantage? I can always have two different wheels cut, it's not a big deal.

The choice of 24 teeth had to do with what was practical when I was machining prototypes, not so much an issue with water jet. However, in the datasheet for the ATSXX style Hall sensors the test target wheel uses a 3 mm tooth pitch. Using that pitch, 24 ends up being the about max tooth count in a 009 size distributor. I haven't tested finer pitch's against detection accuracy, eventually I would think the differential Hall elements will alias if the tooth pitch gets too small.

[piledriver]

Datasheets ae very conservative and typically show worst case performance figures.

I'm using an ats667 on 32 pitch gear teeth to ~12K actual wheel rpm.
The strobe indicated it's still working @ perfect accuracy.
(that's as fast as I could drive it using an old B&D electric die grinder)

You can fit a 60 tooth in a 009 using that style wheel.

For most ACVW apps, wasted spark will be sufficient, but some coils will hit their dwell/duty cycle limit by ~7K, (LS2 coils for example)

Not everyone is limited to an MS1, after all a MS3/ms3x works perfectly fine on even a V1.01 board, it just is "not supported".
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Current daily driver---73 Square, 1.8L T4, MS3+MS3X/sequential w/LS2 coils 80 miles/day.

[jarred]

Good to know, thanks. I'll see about some 60 tooth wheels then...

[jarred]

Now available on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/181630129354?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649