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67 master residual pressure valves with front discs?
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: 67 master residual pressure valves with front discs? Reply with quote

Will anyone that has EXPERIENCE (not theory) with a 67 only master and front disc kit please post. The question is which insert (valve) if any is removed/unscrewed from the master before installing the line when using front disc brakes and rear drums.

A. The Front
B. The Rear
C. Leave them it doesn't matter

A secondary question would flow into when using front and rear discs. Do you remove them both or leave them both?

Thanks in advance.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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type241
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Oldspeed Reply with quote

Contact Russell @ OLDSPEED (562)531-4190.
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Andrew
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, if you are running front discs and rear drums with a '67 only master cylinder, unscrew the residual pressure valve from the FRONT circuit of the master cylinder and use a pair of pliers and just yank out all the guts from it and then screw the valve back in so that you are more or less using it as an adapter.

If you have front and rear discs, then you need to yank out the guts from both FRONT and REAR residual pressure valves on the master cylinder.

The reasoning behind this is that drum brakes need somewhere around 75 lbs of residual pressure, which is provided by the residual pressure valves (and then counteracted by the return springs in your drums). Disc brakes need very little, somewhere in the neighborhood of 5-10 lbs, just to keep the pads against the rotor. With no residual pressure (which is what happens when you yank out the guts), the pads won't stay as close to the rotor as they were designed to be; but that just means that when you hit the brakes, instead of the pad instantly pushing against the rotor, it will have to travel a small fraction of an inch first. More or less like your calipers are self adjusting every time you hit the brakes. Most people won't even notice it. On the other hand, if you leave the stock residual pressure valves, your disc brakes will function normally, but it would be like driving around with the brakes on all the time.
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nelsnfam
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Andrew's description above. Although I believe the residual pressure valves only retain 10 lbs pressure not 75 lbs.

Be that as it may, it's still like driving with your foot on the brake all the time.
Here are some photos of the procedure.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hope this helps 67 only disc brake conversions.

Steve Nelson
http://ratropa.com
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Andrew
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nelsnfam wrote:
I agree with Andrew's description above. Although I believe the residual pressure valves only retain 10 lbs pressure not 75 lbs.

Be that as it may, it's still like driving with your foot on the brake all the time.
Here are some photos of the procedure.

Hope this helps 67 only disc brake conversions.

Steve Nelson
http://ratropa.com


Great pictures of the procedure! Very Happy
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nelsnfam
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Andrew. I took it apart slowly and carefully to get some decent photos.
If I were doing it again, I'd just squeeze the business end in a vice and rip it off.
Anyway, I took it for a test drive and things were just as you said they would be. Brakes stay cool, pedal feels normal and it stops great.

Thanks for the advice. It gave me the confidence to get in there and do it. We don't need no stinking residual pressure.

Steve Nelson
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me ask this. Would the line not screw directly into the master after removing that screw in assembly, or is it a different thread pitch or size? Hoping to do this, this weekend.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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nelsnfam
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snoop, no, the line will not screw into master. The line fitting diameter is smaller.
Also the line would need to be bent or reshaped to line up properly with the opening in the master cylinder.

As Andrew pointed out, the gutted residual pressure valve acts as a spacer/adapter for mating the line to the MC.

If you were hoping to salvage the residual pressure valve functionality so you could revert back, if you weren't happy with no residual pressure, here are some ideas.
1. VERY carefully remove the bits and pieces of the valve so you can put them back on. The casing that holds it all together is just crimped to the fitting.
2. Find a used 67 MC and salvage the valve from it.

Hope this makes some sense to you.
I really think you will find front discs on a split bus a better driving experience with no residual pressure.

Steve Nelson
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. Just trying to cut out a step, wasn't really concerned about the line as I am bending up a new one. Thanks for posting that tech pic tutorial.
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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nelsnfam
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, the fitting has the correct internal shape to mate up with the flare on the end of brake line.

Besides thread size and pitch, flare matching is important too.

Steve Nelson
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Snoop Bob
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nelsnfam wrote:
Also, the fitting has the correct internal shape to mate up with the flare on the end of brake line.

Besides thread size and pitch, flare matching is important too.

Steve Nelson


Thanks, I am aware, It appears the residual valve flare matches the standard double flare on the brake line
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BarryL wrote:
Put your lips onto the little tit with the hole in it inside and make a good seal. You can suck and blow but with a little resistance. It gets better after it's wet.

EverettB wrote:
I would be interested in knowing the sizes of the various shafts.
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brettsvw
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was in school a free brake class was offered and this is what I got from the class. I am not a writer so I hope I make this understandable.

Disc brake calipers work only because of the specific design of the square-cut seal and design of the groove the square-cut seal sits in.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is a pdf drawing of a caliper sliced in two.

http://www.ucx.com/documents/squareseal.pdf

The seal grips the piston and only allows the piston to slide on the seal when the pads wear. The groove that the square cut seal sits in has a beveled edge on the side towards the pads that allows the seal to twist as pressure is applied to the piston . When pressure is released the seal being twisted wants to return to its proper molded position and this moves the piston back away from rotor just enough to separate pad from rotor (no springs to do the job like drum brakes).

By leaving the residual valve in you are keeping pressure applied and this is incorrect. Eventually the seal will loose its grip on the piston and always keep pads touching rotors and premature wear will be the result.

Thea cause of caliper failure is when the seal does not grip the piston and the twisting action of the square-cut seal is no longer present and will no longer return piston like springs in drum brakes release shoes.

I hope I did not confuse anyone.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nelsnfam wrote:
If you were hoping to salvage the residual pressure valve functionality so you could revert back, if you weren't happy with no residual pressure, here are some ideas.
1. VERY carefully remove the bits and pieces of the valve so you can put them back on. The casing that holds it all together is just crimped to the fitting.
2. Find a used 67 MC and salvage the valve from it.


Another option is that aftermarket residual pressure valves are available from companies like Wilwood. It requires cutting the metal line in a spot and putting some fittings and bubble flares on the ends, as the valve goes in line rather than screwing into the master cylinder; but it shouldn't be too difficult with the correct tools.
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vinlong
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:58 pm    Post subject: Residual Pressure Valves Reply with quote

Another option is that aftermarket residual pressure valves are available from companies like Wilwood. It requires cutting the metal line in a spot and putting some fittings and bubble flares on the ends, as the valve goes in line rather than screwing into the master cylinder; but it shouldn't be too difficult with the correct tools.[/quote]


I'm looking into doing what Andrew said, as its probably the best way to add RPV's, but the Wilwood/Speedway (actually everything I've found) RPV's have tapered NPT pipe thread at each end, and its a PITA to find adapters that go from metric bubble to NPT, so I'm thinking about cutting the line, flaring the ends with standard SAE double flare, THEN I can use SAE to NPT adapters.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:42 am    Post subject: Re: Oldspeed Reply with quote

type241 wrote:
Contact Russell @ OLDSPEED (562)531-4190.


x2
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55samba
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2014 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I did my 944 disc conversion back in 05 I used a bug MC because it had the smallest piston I could find. Then I installed 2 psi residual valves in the lines. There was no friction on the pads but they only came back far enough to release. The residual valves were about 1 inch long and threaded into the MC and the rake lines fit right into them. Without them there was way to much free play with a small piston MC. The smaller your MC piston the stronger your brakes will be.

Something like this.

http://volks-shop.com/2-psi-metric-residual-valve-...-5497.html
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vw nutter
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 master residual pressure valves with front discs? Reply with quote

does anyone else have actual experience with running disc front and drum rear in a split bus?

what is the best master to use?
- Baywindow bus master?
- 67 bus master?

what is the best combo?
any tricks?

also what bias valve is needed? or none?
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srfndoc
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 master residual pressure valves with front discs? Reply with quote

The chinese copy 67 master/reservoir is the way to go.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 master residual pressure valves with front discs? Reply with quote

x2 on the above
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Re: 67 master residual pressure valves with front discs? Reply with quote

ok,
that has been my assessment so far to go with the 67 Master

but only 2 options of brands & quality that i can find so far;

option 1, Chinese unknown brand for $50-70
or
Option 2, ATE original German quality $200-300

any other options for a 67 master??
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