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Cruise Control Pick Up *On* Speedo Back? Mk3 VSS w/ pix!
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:13 pm    Post subject: Cruise Control Pick Up *On* Speedo Back? Mk3 VSS w/ pix! Reply with quote

Hi all.

Had a bizzare engine stall on I-5 while doing 70 MPH. Not fun. Am addressing this total mystery by doing a blanket attack. This has never happened before, so recreating it would be tough. Anyhow....

Part of the blanket repair attack includes finally installing a VSS pickup for my swap. It appears to be the same or similar part used in the Vanagon for cruise control. I've read that there's rev limiting or engine cut out issues after a certain RPM (5K?) if no VSS installed. Not sure if this is the problem, but it can't hurt to install it.

Type A question, but does this inductive pickup sit ON the black plastic or slightly below it? Want to make sure pickup is correct distance from speedo, uh, disc (?)

Edit: prior to posting, searched the gallery here and images on line. In a Vanagon, it seems this part sits on the plastic. Just need a Vanagon-ite to confirm

Pics of it installed:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Neil,

When I installed Dan Fleming's VSS in my van I just punched out the little plastic aperture and screwed the cruise sender in place, then wired it up according to his simple instructions.

...I just went out and had a peek at Dixie's cluster and there is a a protrusion on the back that makes it look a little different but the cruise switch mounts the same way so... Wink

There's a thread on Dan's VSS that might offer some tips: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338812

Good Luck!
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jake.

Saw that image in the gallery. I needed a side view. Anyway, it's installed sitting on back, not partway in. In the thread you linked to:

ranchero wrote:
duh...got it all working! My problem in the initial install was that the Jetta sensor was bottoming out on the silver wheel within the speedometer. ......


Maybe there's subtle differences in speedos/pickups or it's possible to push the pickup too far in. At first glance it seemed the hole in speedo was shaped to allow pickup ears through.

For any other VW swappers, under Motronic OBD1 (possibly OBD2), ECU wire that receives VSS pulse is 65/68, blue/white. Tracing from G22 VSS, wire changes colour but G22 center wire is blue/white and wire out of ECU is same, shown going to a connector labeled as VSS or similar.

My VSS is untested, but my VOM showed continuity to correct pin.

If I don't get a code, I think that's the best I can ask for!

Thanks Jake.

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Hey Jake.

Saw that image in the gallery. I needed a side view. Anyway, it's installed sitting on back, not partway in. In the thread you linked to:

ranchero wrote:
duh...got it all working! My problem in the initial install was that the Jetta sensor was bottoming out on the silver wheel within the speedometer. ......


Maybe there's subtle differences in speedos/pickups or it's possible to push the pickup too far in. At first glance it seemed the hole in speedo was shaped to allow pickup ears through.


Thanks Jake.

Neil.


Yeah, that photo shows the big square bump that Dixie's speedo has in the back.
Her VSS sender is yellow like yours though and mounted on the same plane, so yours should be good too, right? Wink

I mean, assuming that that's what caused your flame-out...
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake.

Yah, it should be the same mounting. It's a diesel cluster but that shouldn't matter. Edit: thanks for checking.

The flame out remains a mystery. It seems heat (ambient) was the difference (I've driven 70+ MPH before, no issues) so I made some changes like moving the relay box away from "hot" (upper) coolant hose, installed a small shield to that effect, installed an intake snorkel, double checked and moved some wires (exhaust had melted the FLAPS type wire cover in some spots but not wire casings themselves) etc.

It seems that most issues with a lack of VSS in this particular engine management are rev limiting. But then I read of one or two people claiming the engine cut out. I've also had a continuous hunt for idle, engine up to temp, shut down, parked then started again. I've read that idle issues can be had by you VanaSuby swappers if no VSS present. I don't think in my case that the lack of VSS is the cause of that, but if I can kill two birds....

Fingers crossed,

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my research, I read that the early vanagon speedos had the knock out in the plastic, but may not actually support a VSS signal. I can not verify this, because I ended up installing a replacement cluster from an 86. mark
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
In my research, I read that the early vanagon speedos had the knock out in the plastic, but may not actually support a VSS signal. I can not verify this, because I ended up installing a replacement cluster from an 86. mark


Hey Mark.

Interesting point. The diesel cluster had what looked like the right stuff: a metal ring on the disk inside the speedo.

I have several different speedos in the basement. (I never checked them against the diesel cluster I'm currently using as I assumed all the water cooled speedos had the same hole. Embarassed Not so.)

In terms of whether or not there's a knock out, a quick look at my collection shows:

'85 has a knockout. Different hole than diesel cluster; not shaped like the VSS sensor I just installed. Hole is square with 2 holes for screws. Each of the two 1981 speedos, have metal backs and knock outs. I assume meant for some kind of inductive pickup? The (I think) 1980 speedo has a metal back but no hole. I'd have to open each and compare to see if they have the same looking disc inside. If I'm super bored some day.... Smile

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is nice to see a photo of an actual vanagon VSS sensor. I ended up using one from a later Jetta and having to solder wires on to it. For the TDI, it gets key on power, ground, and the 3rd lead runs to the ECU.

I added the VSS for the cruise control. Coincidentally the engine developed a problem after adding the sensor. The TDI has it's own syndrome called SDS or slow down shudder. Without the input from the VSS, the ECU had no idea if we were moving or not. It prevented the adaption from completing and was storing an error code.

With the VSS, the adaption completed, the cruise began to work, the code was gone, but coming to a stop, the engine would shudder. I was able to solve it with the "hammer mod" after doing some reading.

I replaced my cluster because the original foil had turned to dust. Neil, Go Westy had the brown t/s cruise replacment switches in stock. I just installed it to replace the Jetta one. It looks much nicer now. A fellow Samba member had pointed that out some months ago and I ordered one immediately. mark
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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:
.....Neil, Go Westy had the brown t/s cruise replacment switches in stock. I just installed it to replace the Jetta one. It looks much nicer now. A fellow Samba member had pointed that out some months ago and I ordered one immediately. mark


Good to know. I doubt I'll ever install CC but you never know right?

A list member kindly helped me find the VSS. It was a great "junking" day! As per your comments, just needed 15, - , and connect center wire to ECU.

For others, if they find these symbols on their VW speedo VSS, this is what I understood them to mean:

+

(duh)

|
__

ground (bottom line touches vertical line)

A

signal wire

I have yet to erase and re-check codes and driving it with VSS installed seemed to make no difference. *Maybe* a little better acceleration up in higher revs, but I think that may be due to other things I addressed. (less joins on intake post MAF, air intake snorkel installed) That said, since I had the battery disconnected, I gather it takes several or more start/shut-down cycles for the ECU to (map out?) do it's thing. However. I'm hoping the lack of VSS is what caused the stall and that installing one prevents it from happening again.

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neil, of all the things I have done to our Vanagon, including adding AC, the cruise control is the best. When we take cross country trips, it is not uncommon to drive 600 - 800 miles a day. I don't think we could do it without the cruise control. On the highway, we get up to speed, set the cruise on 71mph and off we go.

If all you need is to add a switch to have cruise and maybe solder a few wires, I highly recommend you do it. I can make you a smokin deal on a jetta cruise switch if you don't want to purchase the vanagon one. Here is a picture with the Jetta cruise switch. You can see it is out of alignment, but does work. mark

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rsxsr wrote:


If all you need is to add a switch to have cruise and maybe solder a few wires, I highly recommend you do it. I can make you a smokin deal on a jetta cruise switch if you don't want to purchase the vanagon one. Here is a picture with the Jetta cruise switch. You can see it is out of alignment, but does work. mark



Thanks for the offer Mark.

Indeed there were times on my last trip where CC would have been nice. I never looked into how it all works on my Mk3 (like if ECU involved, are there wires for that option) but will look into it.

FWIW, the added VSS seemed to make no difference to engine performance. Thankfully though the engine did not stall. Even in hotter conditions when "pushed" up grades.

Installing the VSS likely cured the "MIL - light - coming - on - while - driving - up hills - on - a - hot - day" issue. It did not come on once. Apparantly when this happens, it's the OBD or some such warning of a "serious condition". Like cat too hot etc. This improvement may also have been due to the added intake snorkel (I thought maybe light was coming on due to overly hot air being pulled from engine bay into intake).

So far so good. Wink

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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r39o
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made my own:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

r39o wrote:
I made my own:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



As did I.

That image shows a detail of what I was curious about. There appears to be a recess in the back of your speedometer for the sensor to fit into. My diesel speedo doesn't have this recess.

Thanks for posting the pics!

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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purplepeopleeater
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm guessing that any pre 1992 Audi/vw with cruise should have a vss like this yes? I am on the hunt for a different vss then what's being offered by some, I had nothing but problems with my over the cv pickup(environment problems, snow and dirt)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

purplepeopleeater wrote:
I'm guessing that any pre 1992 Audi/vw with cruise should have a vss like this yes? I am on the hunt for a different vss then what's being offered by some, I had nothing but problems with my over the cv pickup(environment problems, snow and dirt)


I'm looking at vagcat.com. Various Audi's show what looks like a 2 pin pickup at back of cluster. From image of '87 Audi 100 cruise control parts:

..... 443907345B
inductive sender for cruise control system

Neil.
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50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

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hans j
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a 2 pin pickup in my hand from a cabrio and it's part number is 321907344. I'm curious to see what happens here as I need a speedo pickup for my TDI conversion.

I also have a vanagon cruise control stalk to use as well as the speedo pickup from that cluster.
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r39o
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hans j wrote:
I have a 2 pin pickup in my hand from a cabrio and it's part number is 321907344. I'm curious to see what happens here as I need a speedo pickup for my TDI conversion.

I also have a vanagon cruise control stalk to use as well as the speedo pickup from that cluster.

You likely need a 3 wire. Look in the classifeds for parts.

Here is another picture of one mounted:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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kbeefy
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is all the this info applicable to a Syncro? I've read elsewhere that a Syncro uses a different signal from a 2wd and would very much like to get cc working on mine.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comparing info off the TDI group it looks like a Syncro you'll need to use the Dakota Digital unit to control the pulses per mile, but I think the 2wd one doesn't need it as it won't exceed the high speed govener.

but I could be talking outta my butt cause I haven't personally tried this.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hans j wrote:
I have a 2 pin pickup in my hand from a cabrio and it's part number is 321907344. I'm curious to see what happens here as I need a speedo pickup for my TDI conversion.

I also have a vanagon cruise control stalk to use as well as the speedo pickup from that cluster.


The wires for my VSS (and likely r39o) are:

ground
15 +
signal to ECU (in my case) or to cluster etc.

Maybe a 2 wire pickup gets ground via its' body to copper trace path on foil?

Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy air cooled to 15 ABA swap: http://tinyurl.com/y9n4xob8

50 ABA Swap in to '88 Westy: http://tinyurl.com/yap5hpwt

Vanagon VAG GAS engine swap Google Group:
https://tinyurl.com/2f24rmh

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