Tie Rod End Boots...

mxracer · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:13 pm Post subject: Tie Rod End Boots...

I recently replaced all my tie rod ends. In the process I accidentally tore one of the boots. I did a little searching and found a good replacement for the boots. I installed it today and the fit is great. Thought I'd pass it along in case someone else needs just a boot.

They are Energy Suspension part number 9.13103 and can be bought at http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9.13103 for $4 for two of them. Mine were about $9 shipped.

flyinglow94 · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject:

That is a good fix. In the past I had just bought cheap bug tie rods and had taken the boots ,they were cheep like 5.00 ea.
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raygreenwood · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:08 am Post subject:

They actually work horribly. They are urethane and are too stiff. They also do not seal properly.

One of my pet projects right now...hopefully will be done by Christmas....is ball joint and tie-rod end boots...precision molded of high temp silicone with a dacron scrim inside so they cannot rip. I have a CV boot in the works as well. I'll let you know how it goes. Ray

mxracer · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:18 am Post subject:

Houstonr · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:00 am Post subject:

Did anyone ever find balljoint boot replacements? or anything suitable?

I have about 3 extra sets of very good Ball joints, but no good boots Sad

raygreenwood · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:25 am Post subject:

Brent · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:45 am Post subject:

I have a set of rubber tie rod boots. I think I got them CIP1. They look ok, but I never installed them so I don't know if they'd fit right. They do come with the steel rings to hold them on the bottom and the rubber rings for the top.

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C16-131-835B
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raygreenwood · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:06 am Post subject:

If they are old stock...a few years old...they should be good. The problem I have been finding is that for the last few years there has been a world shortgae of Butadiene. This is a major processing agent in tires and many sysnthetic rubbers...and nylons. The manufacturers are usin gas little as possible and are also using other chemistries and methods. this is why so many rubber parts are not working well right now. Ray

Brent · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject:

supaninja · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject:

John at AC.net carries tie rod boots.
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Brent · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject:

raygreenwood · Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:21 pm Post subject:

Im hoping to get the first molds done in June. I'll keep in touch. Ray

eschmi · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 1:51 am Post subject:

any luck on those molds? Im redoing an old buggy and the tie rod boots are a bit torn, theyre nothing like im finding online, not clips around them or anything. Theyre off a 1960 beetle front end.

raygreenwood · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 7:59 am Post subject:

Actually yes and no. A little explanation.

Over the last.....dang.....1.5 years now, or more.....as work time allows, I have been working on numerous molding projects. All but 2 require silicone molding. It sounds fairly simple and would be if the parts just had to flexible, waterproof and look good.

I can get fantatsic pourable silicones in platium catalyzed, tin catalyzed and oxidation cure.

Problem is....that the silicones they make either dont hold up to solvents or oils or have ahrinkage or have no heat and cold resistance long term. And...add to that they are not cheap. The need for these characteristics puts us squarely in the realm of industrial and automotive RTV.
I knew most of this going in. I have molded them before......but primarily in an injection molding environment. That means heated and cooled, mirror polished, tool steel molds that silicones will not stick to. Typically the smallest of them start at about $10-15k. Not an option.

So I have been through the range......about a dozen different polymer molding materials.
About an equal amount of RTV types
Cast metal molds that melt at low temp
About 15 different mold release agents
About four different silicone diluting agents
learning about the curing issues from everything above

What turns out to be the best bet so far....and where I am now.....is a tight mixture of three different RTVs that end up giving the best range of durometer, stretch, chemical resistance and heat resistance (the last one is not really necessary with ball joint boots)....and flowability.
The problem with all of these types of RTV.....is that they arecvery agressjve in tackiness. They are designed to be sealants and adhesives simultaneously. They defeat the vast majority of mold release.
Also even with diluting agents....the viscosity is very high. The RTV must be pressurized for it to easily flow....and the mold must be vacuumed to keep bubbles from forming.

I had to get around the mold release issue by using ablative molds....meaning that the mold....once the RTV cures.....will be dissolved off of the RTV part.
So....that means each mold is six parts. One three part mold to produce a hard original.....which is used to make a three part mold to mold the actual RTV with.

So I have the mold release down, I have the mold down. I have the pressurization down. I have the vacuum down. I have the RTV mix down.
I have a pair waiting for final molding since early December but work has been very busy.

I am in town for two days and will get a few more things ready.....will be on the road until the last week of the month.
I hope to have the first examples of a ball joint and tie rod end boot ready by the end of the month. I cannot assemble my front end without two ball joint boots and four tie rod boots. It has been sitting still since july.

Its looking good though. If it works like it should.....the next stage is making a group mold set to make 4-6 of each for each molding session. Ray

eyetzr · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:49 am Post subject:

Ray, really great you are doing this and I am quite impressed. As I was reading this I remember reading an article on synthetic based lubricants and I am wondering if your boots would survive using that as a lube
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raygreenwood · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:23 am Post subject:

Oh yes. That is the whole point of this crazy trip.
Type 3 parts are easier to get than my parts. My ball joints are largely unobtanium. I cant afford to have boot leakage and joint failure due to either poor rubber, aggressive lubricants or ozone.
These RTVs have no problems with anything. Ray

eschmi · Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2015 11:23 am Post subject:

nice! no way i'd ever be able to figure out how to do that stuff.. or have the patience for it lol, been trying to find boots for a 1960 beetle front end, tie rod boots are pretty much shot but theres nothing on the market anywhere near what these are and i'd rather not replace the entire thing since it doesnt appear you can replace the ends of these because theyre stamped shut.

supermanbidder · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:50 am Post subject: Has anyone experienced?

I have brand new tie rod ends install and just from sitting there only like two months the drivers side inner tie rod boots keep cracking and splitting on me Any ideas?

gavs · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject:

raygreenwood · Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject:

That really depends on what molding equipment is available to use the tooling. For little 1 ton machines like you find in small plastic shops....sure....a tool could cost just a $1-2000.

Problem is it depends on what you are shooting into it. Silicone/RTV...resins...no a big problem. Liquid rubber resin...probably not. That mold will cost you becausse of the level of finishing and polish.

It also depend on what the part is and what the shape is.

For instance if its something that you could make an original hard part of just on a lathe or a mill....that mold is easy to make. Its all angles and lines. You can just CNC mill the main mold parts and drop them into a vibratory polisher and be done with it.

If its compound organic curves....it must be a cast steel mold. Thats what brings the cost up. Foundry work and then machining, then polishing, then lapping for fit etc.

Mold making can be cheap or expensive but it will depend on material and what machine you are making it to fit.

Also on a side note....I have been stopping and starting on the molding. I should be back to it in March.

I finally figured out a lot of issues. The RTV mixtures I am shooting are extremely aggressive. They can defeat the low surface tension of ANY mold release in the industry. At first I thought I was just using the wrong mold releases......and I have tried many.

I finally used a full film barrier of teflon....and it even stuck to parts of that Shocked

.....definitely some cool silicone!

I finally realized that all of the molds must be ablative...meaning like a sand cast. Just dissolve the mold away from the silicone. I have been using a few low temp plastics, some powdered mold media, some plasters and even some paraffins. All work but are either too low pressure or too much shrinkage/inaccuracy.

I have known how to get this done for a while.....I have just been dreading doing it this way...because its can be expensive. By using low temp/high accuracy casting metals

I have to mold a high impact original of each boot. Thats already done now.
From that high impact permanent original I make a meltable inner and two part meltable outer.

The inner goes in first so its medium temp meltable.....and the outer two mold halves are low temp melt.

Clamp them together and shoot the silicone. Dry for 48 hours....then melt the outer mold off and then melt the core out. I dont want to mix the two metals so I can reuse them.
The casting metals are about $100+ a pound. It will take about $400 worth of metal to make a mold to do two boots at a time.

I have some medium temp metal from another project just not enough.

As a further update.....I realized that making boots for type 4 ball joints is just delaying the inevitable. They dot make these joints at all any more.....and just having boots wont keep these cars on the road for decades.

So.....I recently found a company that makes SUPERB racing and offroad joints. I mean really superb....BULLETPROOF....and fully user rebuildable with snap ring construction and all parts available.

There are some joints in their inventory that could be slaved to the type 4 with only an adapter block for the steering knuckle.

And......they sell ball joint boots for $5 each made of Neoprene

And.....they sell these: Full 360 degree tie rod encapsulation boots as well as fully rebuildable tie rod ends.

https://www.howeracing.com/p-7974-precision-tie-rod-boot.aspx

https://www.howeracing.com/c-560-howe-precision-ball-joints.aspx

I am betting somewhere in their inventory they have boots that fit out tie rod ends and ball joints.
Ray


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