| Author |
Message |
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
 Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:47 am Post subject: Suspension Alignment and Height |
 |
|
Went out to San Diego, in part to see what Jack was talking about in regards to the low front end and bad camber on the rear.
On the front, it has sagged two inches. What would cause this? Also, I could not find angle specifications for the arms. Can we archive stock settings, so to account for variances? I went by inch measurements off the old beam, and came out to about a half inch too low. However, the tires were not at full pressure.
I rebuilt the rear suspension with a locals help to correct bad camber in the rear, but does not seem it has been corrected. Looked fine until this summer, about a year after the rebuild. Can camber be adjusted, and if so, how?
Thank you in advance! 
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If it's just been sitting you better drive it around/air up the tires and park it on the street to take some measurements from the tops of your 4 fender wells. I don't see how the rear camber is even adjustable. Your $5 Magnetic Angle Gauge from Harbor Freight is the only height adjustment tool you need to even them up.
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
turbomicrowaves
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1136
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates.
_________________
'68 Sunroof Squareback
"There are no pieces"
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| If it's just been sitting you better drive it around/air up the tires and park it on the street to take some measurements from the tops of your 4 fender wells. I don't see how the rear camber is even adjustable. Your $5 Magnetic Angle Gauge from Harbor Freight is the only height adjustment tool you need to even them up. |
It sagged some on the drive after I got it all together.
I plan to use the angle tool, but no help if I do not know what value I need to be at.  If we could get stock angles then folks have a reference point that currently does not exist.
| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates. |
Thank you for replying!
Can this be done by an alignment shop? It was only because of my friend it got back together.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mxracer
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2011
Posts: 568
Location: NC
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't have my Bentley in front of me right now but from memory the front lower control arm stock setting is 39 degrees +/- 50 minutes. It's in there for sure.
As said above also the rear end camber can be adjusted some via the spring plates and washers but I don't remember that process or specs, also in the Bentley.
As for the sag, it's most likely the torsion arm tension on that side. You may have to play with inner and outer splines to get them at the same height. It's explained in the Bentley also and there are some posts here on that process as well. I think BobNotch also has a "scale" of what each changes the height in inches here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brent
Samba Member
Joined: April 28, 2010
Posts: 1614
Location: San Tan Valley, AZ
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Brown Bentley page 19 for the front.
Section 8.4 #3: 39* + 10' + 50'.
It reads kind of funny, as it looks like 40*. But, if you look at the warning above the picture on the next page it says not to be below 39* 10' and within 50' between wheels.
For the rear, page 72, Section 11.4:
Sedan S/A 22* 30' + 50'
Square S/A 21* 30' + 50'
Sedan IRS 23* + 50'
Square IRS 21* 30' + 50'
_________________
69 Fastback Build
Berg5 Build |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 3:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Brent wrote: |
Brown Bentley page 19 for the front.
Section 8.4 #3: 39* + 10' + 50'.
It reads kind of funny, as it looks like 40*. But, if you look at the warning above the picture on the next page it says not to be below 39* 10' and within 50' between wheels.
For the rear, page 72, Section 11.4:
Sedan S/A 22* 30' + 50'
Square S/A 21* 30' + 50'
Sedan IRS 23* + 50'
Square IRS 21* 30' + 50' |
Brent, thank you! About a year ago I had looked for front specifications and asked, and was told they do not exist; even the lowering videos said it. Guess I need to look harder...  
My Bentley is back in San Diego, so... Interesting it says the front can't be raised more than 39* 10'. Sounds like I might have to fiddle with the ones in the arms which apparently a bit more difficult.
I had the rear set slightly higher than stock with Koni dampers so as could haul without concern, and wanted to take it off roading like the prior owner did. However, at this point, doubt I do it, as it is having hard enough time staying running.
So once I get the wiring set, now thanks to you all, can move on setting the front proper. Still not sure why it sagged like that, and concerns me.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22425
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mxracer wrote: |
| I think BobNotch also has a "scale" of what each changes the height in inches here. |
If I remember right, each outer spline in the rear equaled 2 9/16 inches (front or rear). The inner spline was more, since they are more coarse. Like Mike mentioned, you might need to move both inner and outer to get what you want. Keep in mind that to do that kind of move, you might need to move the inner 2 splines 1 way(like to the right for example), then move the outer spring plate 1 or 2 splines to the left (opposite of the first) to get the right movement combo.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
krusher
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2002
Posts: 7652
Location: europe
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Adriel Rowley"]
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates. |
Thank you for replying!
Can this be done by an alignment shop? It was only because of my friend it got back together. |
This is miss-leading there is no rear camber adjustment, if you lower or raise the rear suspension the camber will alter, so to get less camber you can raise the rear suspension height, but there is no way to alter the camber and stay at the same height, an alignment shop will not do this.
_________________
(06:31:07) RoachGhia: "i drink dick way too fast" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| maybe the trailing arm bushes are worn giving too much negative camber? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="krusher"]
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates. |
Thank you for replying!
Can this be done by an alignment shop? It was only because of my friend it got back together. |
This is miss-leading there is no rear camber adjustment, if you lower or raise the rear suspension the camber will alter, so to get less camber you can raise the rear suspension height, but there is no way to alter the camber and stay at the same height, an alignment shop will not do this. |
Thank you for clarifying!
So what would cause the incorrect camber and how do I correct it, hopefully without removing the spring plates? The arms did not look bent but can check again. Rather do it right than get in an accident.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22425
Location: Kimball, Mi
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Adriel Rowley"]
| krusher wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates. |
Thank you for replying!
Can this be done by an alignment shop? It was only because of my friend it got back together. |
This is miss-leading there is no rear camber adjustment, if you lower or raise the rear suspension the camber will alter, so to get less camber you can raise the rear suspension height, but there is no way to alter the camber and stay at the same height, an alignment shop will not do this. |
Thank you for clarifying!
So what would cause the incorrect camber and how do I correct it, hopefully without removing the spring plates? The arms did not look bent but can check again. Rather do it right than get in an accident. |
About the only things I can think of are worn out control arm (trailing arm) bushings, or not enough angle on the spring plates. If BOTH are good, then I'd say a bent rear subframe. There's only so many parts in the system. One other thing that could cause excess camber, and that's loose drive hub (worn bearings, improper installation (missing snap ring), worn stub axle...etc), and the axle nut not torqued to 217 ft lbs.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
turbomicrowaves
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1136
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="krusher"]
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates. |
Thank you for replying!
Can this be done by an alignment shop? It was only because of my friend it got back together. |
This is miss-leading there is no rear camber adjustment, if you lower or raise the rear suspension the camber will alter, so to get less camber you can raise the rear suspension height, but there is no way to alter the camber and stay at the same height, an alignment shop will not do this. |
By setting the spring plates, the height is also set which determines the camber of the tires.
_________________
'68 Sunroof Squareback
"There are no pieces"
OCT3 - Orange County Type 3's |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Slow 1200
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2004
Posts: 2105
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| If the control arm bushings have not been changed lately they are definetly the main suspect..if they are new, then there's something bent! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am surprised there is no such thing as a camber kit for the IRS vw?
So many other cars with the same basic trailing arm design have an eccentric type adjustable bushes available as a kit. But not the good old vw.
hmm? I wonder if k-mac could make a custom kit? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| krusher wrote: |
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| turbomicrowaves wrote: |
| The camber can be adjusted by setting the spring plates. |
Thank you for replying!
Can this be done by an alignment shop? It was only because of my friend it got back together. |
This is miss-leading there is no rear camber adjustment, if you lower or raise the rear suspension the camber will alter, so to get less camber you can raise the rear suspension height, but there is no way to alter the camber and stay at the same height, an alignment shop will not do this. |
Thank you for clarifying!
So what would cause the incorrect camber and how do I correct it, hopefully without removing the spring plates? The arms did not look bent but can check again. Rather do it right than get in an accident. |
About the only things I can think of are worn out control arm (trailing arm) bushings, or not enough angle on the spring plates. If BOTH are good, then I'd say a bent rear subframe. There's only so many parts in the system. One other thing that could cause excess camber, and that's loose drive hub (worn bearings, improper installation (missing snap ring), worn stub axle...etc), and the axle nut not torqued to 217 ft lbs. |
Bob, thank you for replying! Sorry did not see this sooner. TheSamba despite asking for notifications only does it once in a while. Can't find a pattern to it, otherwise I would say it is acting according to a logic. Taking one and a half full time, really no time to be on theSamba except the Sabbath.
It is simple, but at times, the simplest can be a chalange due to the simplicity. I want to be sure what is right before I mess it up.
I did not remove the axel nut, and I did check it a couple years ago, so will check again.
Bearings were replaced and installed per Bentley.
What do you mean by a warn sub axle? How would I check?
By angle you mean suspension height, I can get both hands on top of each other between the tire and fender. With about a 300 pound load in the rear, dropped about a quarter to half inch.
Do not have my Bentley here plus, might as well as the master. Can I remove the arms without removing anything else except brake lines?
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Slow 1200 wrote: |
| If the control arm bushings have not been changed lately they are definetly the main suspect..if they are new, then there's something bent! |
Thank you for replying!
I did not replace them as the help I had said they looked fine. Did not want to have noisy bushings if I could avoid it. Also, was told it was a HUGE project and wanted to get it done. If I do need to replace them, how do I do it so it not such a huge undertaking? How about reducing the noise from the bushings?
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adriel Rowley
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posts: 4748
Location: Mesa, Arizona
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
| vlad01 wrote: |
I am surprised there is no such thing as a camber kit for the IRS vw?
So many other cars with the same basic trailing arm design have an eccentric type adjustable bushes available as a kit. But not the good old vw.
hmm? I wonder if k-mac could make a custom kit? |
Well why not ask?
Why would want a different camber than stock? Avoid wheel tuck? Thought that only happened on swing axle. Part of the reason a cousin became a paralyzed from the shoulders down. No one talkes about him because they are so upset. So, do not know anything more othr than that he was trying to avoid an accident while going around a curve and slammed on his brakes.
_________________
Please consider I am Autistic, so I process information differently and still working on social skills. Thanks.
Dad's 1964 Beetle purchased September 1968.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9252810#9252810
1971 Sunroof Squareback with Fuel Injection
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=219811&highlight=squareback+rejuvenation |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike Fisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
What are you building a dump truck? They handle/corner/drive/track/cross winds etc a LOT better lowered 1 spline on all 4 corners & you can still run 195's if you want to. Take it Down down 1 inner spline and report back to us how much Better it Handles!
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vlad01
Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2010
Posts: 3069
Location: Australia
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 4:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Adriel Rowley wrote: |
| vlad01 wrote: |
I am surprised there is no such thing as a camber kit for the IRS vw?
So many other cars with the same basic trailing arm design have an eccentric type adjustable bushes available as a kit. But not the good old vw.
hmm? I wonder if k-mac could make a custom kit? |
Well why not ask?
Why would want a different camber than stock? Avoid wheel tuck? Thought that only happened on swing axle. Part of the reason a cousin became a paralyzed from the shoulders down. No one talkes about him because they are so upset. So, do not know anything more othr than that he was trying to avoid an accident while going around a curve and slammed on his brakes. |
When lowering it say 3 splines the rear camber gets a little crazy. front is solved using Bert's drop spindles but the back can be a little too negative so a camber bushing kit will allow you to tweak it to a lower amount say like -2 o.
Playing around with the spring plate works but a few guys I know elongate the holes vertically to get more camber adjustmet but I would rather not do it that way.
I am talking about irs btw  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
