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Are 96mm P&Cs a bolt-on upgrade for an L-Jet 2.0?
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okartguy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject: Are 96mm P&Cs a bolt-on upgrade for an L-Jet 2.0? Reply with quote

Hi guys-

The time is fast approaching for my all-stock 2.0 to need a through freshening up. I'm working under the expectation that new P&Cs will be in order thanks to some recurring problems with detonation and past overheating. After looking around online, I came across the Keith Black hypereutectic kits sold at aircooledtechnology.com.

My question is this... If I'm going to replace/upgrade anyway, could I not go with the 96mm kit for a little extra displacement? And if I do, will my heads need to be clearanced to accommodate the larger cylinders? Will my stock FI handle the increased capacity?

I'm not looking to build a big-bore stroker, and I can't mortgage my home to buy one of Raby's magic bullets. Just looking for a tiny bit of extra grunt. Thoughts?
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JJ
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'79 Westfalia / 2.0 + dual DRLA 40s / 16" steelies

'75 Westfalia "Project Orange Peel" https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10164122#10164122
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO even the 2.0 is too large and never should have been made. The amount of cooling air pushed thru the shroud on a 1.7L 1.8L and 2.0L are the same. But, go ahead and try it - let us know how it works for you. I have a 2.0L that is blueprinted and the FI is tweaked to perfection. Too much heat. My 1971 1.6L DP at 80 MPH was ice cold compared to my 2.0L at 65 MPH.
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okartguy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, this is an Oklahoma bus that has survived frequent use over the last 5 years in some very hot weather (often on the highway) without ill effect. The overheating/detonation issues only arose after I jacked with the timing. Lesson learned.
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JJ
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'79 Westfalia / 2.0 + dual DRLA 40s / 16" steelies

'75 Westfalia "Project Orange Peel" https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10164122#10164122
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My understding is that 96 mm P&C just do not have the cooling capacity unless you are using nickies. Dished and with a resonable CR.

I stuck with 94s and am plenty satisfied.
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jmstu76
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously? No one has bought these beauties yet? If they don't shed heat, why would Raby offer them.
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'76 Deluxe Sage Green Westy
2258 cc GD case 78mm CW crank, 2.0 H-beam rods 5,325” 22mm pin, JE forged pistons with 15cc dish, JE rings, type 11 clearanced oil pump, CB Eagle 2205 Type-2 “Torque Special” hydraulic cam with matched lifters fed by CB Dual Weber 40 IDF MX with 6” foam air filters, currently 55 idle, 130 main, 200 air correction, 32 mm venturis. 27in General Grabber AT2 All Terrains, Berg Shifter, stock '76 exhaust HPC Ceramic Coated. 11/18/2020
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Hoody
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You will not be doing your engine any favors putting 96's in. There is a reason Jake used 94 Mahles in the Camper special kit. If you want a little more umph it's way more complicated than throwing larger pistons on a stock engine. When I built my engine first and foremost were the heads. Cry once build it once. Have Len build your heads. Unless you have a large budget keep it stock. The problem is where do you stop? New heads...pistons...cam...ditch the hydraulics...petty soon your doing a complete rebuild. The only way your going to get more grunt is by upgrading your heads, cam,and exhaust set up. I guess what I am trying to say is if you throw 96's on your stock engine it will fry your heads in a heart beat.
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmstu76 wrote:
Seriously? No one has bought these beauties yet? If they don't shed heat, why would Raby offer them.


Be sure to get his latest one of these if you decide to try those cylinders. And if you were just playing a game of throwing names thinking you might win through intimidation - better have tried and lost. Wink

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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmstu76 wrote:
Seriously? No one has bought these beauties yet? If they don't shed heat, why would Raby offer them.


Because I am betting he uses them with a totally differnt shroud, cooling system, exhaust and cam coombo. Ray
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Randy in Maine
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also using 96mm P&Cs in a 914 or a beetle would not generate the load on the engine expressed in CHTs that I see as I try to push my big loaded bus down the road in a headwind.

Just a different application.
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okartguy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that's exactly the information *I* was looking for... James is just trying to stir up trouble. Have any of you guys used 94mm Keith Blacks with stock cylinders? Any reason not to?
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JJ
Tulsa, OK
'79 Westfalia / 2.0 + dual DRLA 40s / 16" steelies

'75 Westfalia "Project Orange Peel" https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10164122#10164122
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okartguy wrote:
Well, that's exactly the information *I* was looking for... James is just trying to stir up trouble. Have any of you guys used 94mm Keith Blacks with stock cylinders? Any reason not to?


IMHO if you are building a stock engine the Mahles work well. The last two sets I've gotten from Bus Depot had proper ring gaps and the pistons were within one gram of each other right out of the box. Kolbenschmidt was the standard for years but a bit pricy and you want something made after 1991 when VW changed the piston to cylinder clearances to stop 2.0's from seizing.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okartguy wrote:
Well, that's exactly the information *I* was looking for... James is just trying to stir up trouble. Have any of you guys used 94mm Keith Blacks with stock cylinders? Any reason not to?


Nice to see Oklahoma City VW people on the forum.
Do you do any shopping at Kerr Automotive in OKC? My favorite parts shop hands down....amazing inventory. Ray
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okartguy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yeah, all us OKC bus guys are well-versed in the chaotic wonderment that is Kerr Automotive. We're frequently in there getting on Roy's and Robert's last nerve. Not that it takes much!
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JJ
Tulsa, OK
'79 Westfalia / 2.0 + dual DRLA 40s / 16" steelies

'75 Westfalia "Project Orange Peel" https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10164122#10164122
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curtis4085
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoody wrote:
You will not be doing your engine any favors putting 96's in. There is a reason Jake used 94 Mahles in the Camper special kit. If you want a little more umph it's way more complicated than throwing larger pistons on a stock engine. When I built my engine first and foremost were the heads. Cry once build it once. Have Len build your heads. Unless you have a large budget keep it stock. The problem is where do you stop? New heads...pistons...cam...ditch the hydraulics...petty soon your doing a complete rebuild. The only way your going to get more grunt is by upgrading your heads, cam,and exhaust set up. I guess what I am trying to say is if you throw 96's on your stock engine it will fry your heads in a heart beat.


why ditch the hydraulics? curiious as i am doing my rebould now and went with stock hydraulics and Len Hoffman AMC blueprint specials. Is there a down side to Hydraulic lifters
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okartguy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, tell me more about these Len Hoffman heads. Why go with him over Adrian at Headflow Masters?
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'75 Westfalia "Project Orange Peel" https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=10164122#10164122
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okartguy wrote:
Also, tell me more about these Len Hoffman heads. Why go with him over Adrian at Headflow Masters?


Len Uses only new AMC heads. Adrian Im sure is great, have heard wonderful things about him. Len I have spoken with a bit and he told me he had only had one seat in his VW heads ever pull out and that was in a hot rod. Len sells Raby his Camper Special heads. Len does great work. Now I do not know much about Adrian but what I have heard had been good.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okartguy wrote:
Also, tell me more about these Len Hoffman heads. Why go with him over Adrian at Headflow Masters?


because no one can take a used 2.0 head and make it new. Almost 100% of used heads will have cracks that need to be welded up too. You can redo a used head for less money than a new head but it will still be a used head. I have rebuilt heads. The aluminum is softer than a new head. That is how physics works.
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udidwht
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been running 96mm KB's now for approximately 48,000 miles and have had no problems. You will have to make some small adjustments to the cylinder tins to accommodate the larger cylinders if I remember correctly. So long as all your cooling tin is in place with a working thermostat you shouldn't have any problems. I'm also running 42x36mm heads.

That's as large a displacement I'd go with a stock cooling system. Any larger and you'll need more modifications such as oil cooler capacity, larger oil pump, DTM shroud and added cylinder studs to keep the cylinders from floating around. In other words...A lot more money.
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jmstu76
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

udidwht wrote:
I've been running 96mm KB's now for approximately 48,000 miles and have had no problems. You will have to make some small adjustments to the cylinder tins to accommodate the larger cylinders if I remember correctly. So long as all your cooling tin is in place with a working thermostat you shouldn't have any problems. I'm also running 42x36mm heads.

That's as large a displacement I'd go with a stock cooling system. Any larger and you'll need more modifications such as oil cooler capacity, larger oil pump, DTM shroud and added cylinder studs to keep the cylinders from floating around. In other words...A lot more money.


Are you running VW heads or amc's? I spoke with European motorsports on the phone. They are the guys that put the 96 mm KB kits together. George of European told me you need to enlarge the combustion chamber of the stock bus head since the stock pistons are dished and the KB's are domed. Did you have your chambers enlarged? Are you running stock FI?
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'76 Deluxe Sage Green Westy
2258 cc GD case 78mm CW crank, 2.0 H-beam rods 5,325” 22mm pin, JE forged pistons with 15cc dish, JE rings, type 11 clearanced oil pump, CB Eagle 2205 Type-2 “Torque Special” hydraulic cam with matched lifters fed by CB Dual Weber 40 IDF MX with 6” foam air filters, currently 55 idle, 130 main, 200 air correction, 32 mm venturis. 27in General Grabber AT2 All Terrains, Berg Shifter, stock '76 exhaust HPC Ceramic Coated. 11/18/2020
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if I remember correctly they are VW heads (42x36mm)and they were unshrouded as well. Not running FI, dual Weber 40mm's. Averaging 17-18 city 22hwy. And this is with a tweaked German 009 w/Pertronix. I put this engine together back in early 2000.
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