Author |
Message |
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes. That is the "Bonderite 5200" from the looks of it. I saw his ad in tbe 914 forum.
It ia non chrome. Its tbe Henkel Alodine product. It works pretty well but should be sealed. Its designed as an oxygen barrier....a pre-coat for parts that will eventially be painted. But in our use.....it will probably be a long enough life that we wouldnt care. He probably is sealing it. Henkel recommends a product called Deoxylyte 200 NC.
https://krayden.com/technical-data-sheet/henk_bonderite_m-nt_5200_mu_technical_data_sheet/
Its a slight acid......self etching basically. If you are doing it for a service ane have a tank....its horribly expensive ....about $250 for 5 gal. But if you keep it clean you can use it,for ages. Ray |
From Joe when he did my trans:
Quote: |
The parts are walnut blasted in preparation for the chem. treatment.
The chem. process that is applied is a DOW #1. |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sat May 30, 2020 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
SGKent wrote: |
raygreenwood wrote: |
Yes. That is the "Bonderite 5200" from the looks of it. I saw his ad in tbe 914 forum.
It ia non chrome. Its tbe Henkel Alodine product. It works pretty well but should be sealed. Its designed as an oxygen barrier....a pre-coat for parts that will eventially be painted. But in our use.....it will probably be a long enough life that we wouldnt care. He probably is sealing it. Henkel recommends a product called Deoxylyte 200 NC.
https://krayden.com/technical-data-sheet/henk_bonderite_m-nt_5200_mu_technical_data_sheet/
Its a slight acid......self etching basically. If you are doing it for a service ane have a tank....its horribly expensive ....about $250 for 5 gal. But if you keep it clean you can use it,for ages. Ray |
From Joe when he did my trans:
Quote: |
The parts are walnut blasted in preparation for the chem. treatment.
The chem. process that is applied is a DOW #1. |
|
If its actually Dow #1....then its a chromate based process. Technically Alodine 5200 falls within the confines of a "Dow #1" process by ingredients.
The original Dow #1 used Nitric acid and chromic acid. There are other acids you can substitute if the polarity and strength are right. Its typically a di-chromate i think.
I will have to check with him and see what he wants to a shroud. It would save me the time and probably money. Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2536 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
|
Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:07 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
I sandblasted my fan shroud and polished it to an almost mirror finish thinking that it was aluminum. It was a lot of work since it is such a rough casting. It looked great but of course it didn’t last. I will probably buff it out again and clear coat it with a lacquer that is easy to get off with a solvent wipe. Long ago I used POR15 clear on it. Most of it didn’t hold up and what did was a bitch to get off. It’s nice to shine it up after doing an engine build but keeping it pretty is a losing battle. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ivwshane Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 1920 Location: Sacramento ca
|
Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
orwell84 wrote: |
I sandblasted my fan shroud and polished it to an almost mirror finish thinking that it was aluminum. It was a lot of work since it is such a rough casting. It looked great but of course it didn’t last. I will probably buff it out again and clear coat it with a lacquer that is easy to get off with a solvent wipe. Long ago I used POR15 clear on it. Most of it didn’t hold up and what did was a bitch to get off. It’s nice to shine it up after doing an engine build but keeping it pretty is a losing battle. |
Do you have pics of what it looked like after you shined it up? I’ve never seen one with a mirror finish before. _________________ 77 westy 2.0 FI
69 ghia coup 1600dp
70 single cab |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Sun May 31, 2020 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
orwell84 wrote: |
I sandblasted my fan shroud and polished it to an almost mirror finish thinking that it was aluminum. It was a lot of work since it is such a rough casting. It looked great but of course it didn’t last. I will probably buff it out again and clear coat it with a lacquer that is easy to get off with a solvent wipe. Long ago I used POR15 clear on it. Most of it didn’t hold up and what did was a bitch to get off. It’s nice to shine it up after doing an engine build but keeping it pretty is a losing battle. |
if you are going that route use Gibbs. It will patina an even gray _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
orwell84 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2007 Posts: 2536 Location: Plattsburgh, New York
|
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:52 am Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
SGKent wrote: |
orwell84 wrote: |
I sandblasted my fan shroud and polished it to an almost mirror finish thinking that it was aluminum. It was a lot of work since it is such a rough casting. It looked great but of course it didn’t last. I will probably buff it out again and clear coat it with a lacquer that is easy to get off with a solvent wipe. Long ago I used POR15 clear on it. Most of it didn’t hold up and what did was a bitch to get off. It’s nice to shine it up after doing an engine build but keeping it pretty is a losing battle. |
if you are going that route use Gibbs. It will patina an even gray |
Thanks, I like to keep the engine bay clean and a nice fan housing sets it off nicely but it’s hard to make stuff stick to mag especially when it gets dinged by tools. It’s not like shining up Elderbrock heads on your Harley. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
Yes I understand. I started to put the shroud in the car to take to the powder coater but I just can't bring myself to drive over there. I know that when it comes back it will be beautiful, and likely remain that way for years - but when it gets a few nicks in it, and the O2 gets to the magnesium near those nicks, it will eventually delaminate at the nicks. When that happens flakes will come off and it will be a real pain to clean up. It will happen with the shroud having so much mag in it. This paint has held up for 10 years - I can clean it, lightly buff it and hit it with another coat of aluminum paint. That is easy to touch up if it ever gets scratched. And the next owner will thank me somewhere down the line.
Here is the look I think will go for - 1975 advertising literature
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
Thought I would update this. Looking on some 914, 911 and other foreign car forums where the vehicles had magnesium in the shrouds, timing covers, valve covers etc, the general consensus is don't do it. Some powder coaters will refuse if they are told it is has a high level of magnesium in it for safety reasons, others will refuse because the blasting process can damage the item, and the high failure rate of the powder coating makes it a liability for the shop. On top of it, if you are the unlucky person whom it fails on, getting the powder coating off to redo it without further damaging the magnesium part can be a nightmare in itself. Paint it shall be. Maybe I can use some single stage I have lying around that was used on the wheels. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 8:03 am Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
SGKent wrote: |
Thought I would update this. Looking on some 914, 911 and other foreign car forums where the vehicles had magnesium in the shrouds, timing covers, valve covers etc, the general consensus is don't do it. Some powder coaters will refuse if they are told it is has a high level of magnesium in it for safety reasons, others will refuse because the blasting process can damage the item, and the high failure rate of the powder coating makes it a liability for the shop. On top of it, if you are the unlucky person whom it fails on, getting the powder coating off to redo it without further damaging the magnesium part can be a nightmare in itself. Paint it shall be. Maybe I can use some single stage I have lying around that was used on the wheels. |
That has been my reservation as well with powder coating....with this part. If it works ....good. But if and when it screws up.....bad news.
Another possible angle I might try. In the aircraft industry a lot of magnesium parts that attach to stainless or aluminum and are planned to be painted with the part they attache to, mainly for surface smoothing and weather sealing......are primarily treated by one or seberal of the methods already mentioned here.....(Alodine, anodizing, pickling, etching)....not as stand alone surface coating but as an adhesion PRIMER for paint.
See....Alodine....is not "A specific" coating. Its a family of coatings. Actually....its a brand name for a family of coatings and treatments. There are others in the family used for magnesium....that will never "look" good....and are not designed to. They are designed specifically to prep the surface for paint.
I will post what I found a couple months back later in the day.
Basically....its a light etching process that has just enough surface sealing in it to keep the oxygen off the surface for a short period of time until you can paint it...with specific types of paints. Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
jtauxe Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2004 Posts: 5780 Location: Los Alamos, New Mexico
|
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
Here's a photo of my engine as I got it. Someone had painted the shroud black:
Now, with a few years on the refit. I like the shroud in its natural finish (just sandblasted clean (I do not recall what blasting medium was used):
Here's another from an unmolested 1973 Wild Westerner:
_________________ John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22450 Location: Escondido CA
|
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
Hanover Factory Shot - known finish we were not there to witness.
_________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
|
Back to top |
|
|
notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22450 Location: Escondido CA
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:08 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
notchboy wrote: |
Pretty obvious.
|
golden colored is 1979. At least 1975 was silver. Look at the lower right image in the 1975 literature. (Although it has carbs on it in the photo)
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22450 Location: Escondido CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 8:04 am Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
See this is the part where it gets interesting. Opening up for pages of debate and speculation limited to one's imagination based on their reality.
One may assume that the pictures are equal, being used in an official capacity by VW. But how is a static engine used for publicity equal to an off the line - made to use one? _________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
this discussion is going in circles. It is getting to be like the mirror angle discussion. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21513 Location: Oklahoma City
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:30 am Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
notchboy wrote: |
See this is the part where it gets interesting. Opening up for pages of debate and speculation limited to one's imagination based on their reality.
One may assume that the pictures are equal, being used in an official capacity by VW. But how is a static engine used for publicity equal to an off the line - made to use one? |
Part of what I have been getting at in my posts about these coatings.....lets call them "Alodine" just to describe a coating process...even though Alodine is a brand name and not necessarily a specific exact coating (kind of like calling all cola drinks....Coke)......is that it would be rare to find all of the shrouds and engine cases to be anywhere close to the exact same color.
First.....Alodine type coatings come in a rainbow of colors.....from clear/colorless.....to gold/green....to pinkish tan.....as starting base colors. The "density" or exact hue of that color.....depends entirely on how long the part spent in the bath along with strength of bath and temperature.
And....the color is not "functional". Its just a by-product.
So its entirely possible.....that parts that are treated say.....in winter versus summer....with have a different depth or hue because if difficulty in keeping bath temperature in large vats uniform (not saying they had this issue....just that its a known issue with this process).....and/or....you can see hue variation in vats that are new/fresh versus old and nearly spent or dirty.
The other part I was getting at in my posts.....is what is the actual function of an Alodine type of conversion coating? Thats an easy one to answer.
Its not for appearance. In the plating and metal treatment world.....it serves two functions....pretty much ONLY.
1. Its used as a short to moderate term protectant for otherwise raw magnesium and aluminum parts (yes they make Alodine "type" coatings specific to aluminum but its a different process and chemistry).
Its function is to prevent oxygen from reaching the natural surface of the metal.....there upon starting the natural oxidization process that produces that powdery residue.
Aluminum and magnesium both produce oxidization layers on the surface. These oxides ....while they are a mechanism that prevent wholesale corrosion (basically a sacrifical system whether they are anodes or not).......these oxides prevent the adhesion of paint and coatings and interfere with the processes of plating and anodizing. The Alodine anx pretty much any chromate type coating.....is used as an electrolytic passivization coating and oxygen sealer.
So as raw parts are made that will be stored in a controlled environment until they are needed for final assembly and machine work......they can be Alodine or chromate coated to keep them sealed up and ready to work with.
2. The primary function in the aircraft structural part and engine building industries.....for Alodine type and other chromate coatings.....is what I listed above.....AND.....as a base ADHESION layer primer for paint or powder coating.
In virtually "0" cases....are Alodine coated parts dictated as stand alone coatings. Its just a single layer of sacrifical chromate...between atmospheric oxygen, water, UV etc......and the metal surface that is designed to corrode. Its not strong enough out in the weather to last for long.
Because of this high speed corrosion of magnesium.....it starts within seconds or minutes of when the part is molded or cast......paint....is nearly impossible to get to adhere long term to magnesium. But if you seal its surface from oxygen...and passivate (electrolytically neutralize) its ability to corrode at least in the short term......you can make paint and other coatings stick to it like glue.
The paint is really sticking to the Alodine.
But.....the engine shrouds are not really out in the full on weather. This is why the coating VW pit on them.....lasts as long as it does....especially in dry climates.
All of that said.....the gist is that there is no "exact" color of Alodine. The color vatiation warning is actually wfitten in the TDS of virtually every Alodine and Alodine equivalent "type" of product on the market......with warnings to adjust your specific process (time, temperature and surface pre-etch and prep).....if your specification requires a specific color range.
My point.....is that with these types of coatings. I would doubt we could accurately say what year or month of VW engine case, shroud or transmission case.....had what specific color of coating. Ray |
|
Back to top |
|
|
notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22450 Location: Escondido CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
There we have it. If I missed it in the past, I didn't this time.
It was coated. Due to the manufacturer process, and or even product sourcing, color varied from clearish to goldish.
Im taking that with me for now on.
Thanks Ray. _________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jeff Geisen Samba Chaplain
Joined: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1881 Location: N.W. Georgia
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
Only on the Bay Window Forum, four pages on fan shroud color. Closing in on 11,000 views. _________________ I Corinthians 4: 1 thru 5
‘63 ragtop - ‘68 single cab |
|
Back to top |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16863 Location: sticksville, ct.
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
Jeff Geisen wrote: |
Only on the Bay Window Forum, four pages on fan shroud color. Closing in on 11,000 views. |
4 pages and 9 years
steve...just asking here but why agonize over this? I mean SOP is either natural or a silver color for most. from what I gather, you're putting together another engine just to sell the bus...
whatever schmuck buys it isn't going to give a rat....trust me. your buyer is going to be someone with more money than brains who thinks the bus is "cute" because there is no bay window 'purist' that would pay your asking price. didn't you list this for sale a few years back in the 30-40k range and it didn't sell?
you're overbuilding it for what the market will bear....btdt. _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22450 Location: Escondido CA
|
Posted: Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Fan Shroud(housing) - original finish?(gold) (Type 4) |
|
|
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
you're overbuilding it for what the market will bear....btdt. |
Very, very true. I had a good friend remind me of this when doing the finishing details to my 74.
That Im going to sell. _________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|