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TheRealMacGyvers 1977 Restore On A Budget Thread
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was some crazy blower fan. Just for haha's I hooked it up and it blew the fresh air flaps wide open Laughing
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Joey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You putting up wood paneling or fixing a bus???

Where I live Liquid nails is more expensive than seam sealer. I would guess the liquid nails will not flex (shrinking and expansion due to temperatures) and crack which will allow moisture to get into the repair and start the rusting process all over again.

Seam sealer is the way to go.
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RatCamper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If liquid nails works, it works. The aim is to stop moisture from entering and getting trapped right? If it does the job then there's no problem.

I'll admit in a pinch I used a bit of interior gap filler sanded and painted over it on a rocker or something with the plan to fix it when I got a MIG. Problem is I don't know where that was anymore. I did it about 3 years ago and it blends in. there is also a ~1cm slice out of the left rear quarter panel going from the front to half way to the taillight which I patched with a lot of fiberglass inside and out, and body filler to smooth out air pockets I hit while sanding. The panel in front of that is caved in pretty badly. Both from the same accident as I understand it.

What stopped me from fixing things "properly" was budget, equipment, time and ability. So, everything really. But people do what they have to.
Now I have some of the equipment, and can pretend I have some ability. Budget...well that's what saving is for. Time can be dealt with if all other conditions are met in hit and run metalworking sessions. That leaves materials. I don't have any remotely similar sheet metal. I'm assuming it's mild steel, but I don't know how thick it is and I'm not going to slice a chunk out to find out. Gauges are useless to me as they don't translate well I've found. It needs to be a metric thickness.

Sorry, my point with all this being that a cleaned up, sealed patch is better than a rusty hole no matter how it is achieved.

Seriously I asked this before OP why are you tacking the patches on?
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TheRealMacGyver
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RatCamper wrote:
If liquid nails works, it works. The aim is to stop moisture from entering and getting trapped right? If it does the job then there's no problem.

I'll admit in a pinch I used a bit of interior gap filler sanded and painted over it on a rocker or something with the plan to fix it when I got a MIG. Problem is I don't know where that was anymore. I did it about 3 years ago and it blends in. there is also a ~1cm slice out of the left rear quarter panel going from the front to half way to the taillight which I patched with a lot of fiberglass inside and out, and body filler to smooth out air pockets I hit while sanding. The panel in front of that is caved in pretty badly. Both from the same accident as I understand it.

What stopped me from fixing things "properly" was budget, equipment, time and ability. So, everything really. But people do what they have to.
Now I have some of the equipment, and can pretend I have some ability. Budget...well that's what saving is for. Time can be dealt with if all other conditions are met in hit and run metalworking sessions. That leaves materials. I don't have any remotely similar sheet metal. I'm assuming it's mild steel, but I don't know how thick it is and I'm not going to slice a chunk out to find out. Gauges are useless to me as they don't translate well I've found. It needs to be a metric thickness.

Sorry, my point with all this being that a cleaned up, sealed patch is better than a rusty hole no matter how it is achieved.

Seriously I asked this before OP why are you tacking the patches on?


The sheet it 18 gauge, which I believe is 1.2 mm. The main reason I am patching is because it is a happy-medium fix that I am willing to accept. If you wire-wheel the rot, then phospho then get a piece of metal behind it and tack it in, you don't have to worry about cutting a perfect patch and spending a lot of time forming it to contour and fit the hole you just cut out. Then you have doubled the thickness of the metal in that area around the previous rot. No reason to seam weld and chance over heating the panel, so I am just tacking it and then sealing the seam around the patch. Finally body fill over the hole, which will end up being a thin (acceptable) layer of body filler that will be easy to form/contour to the surrounding body area. I don't think it is the best way, but I also don't think it is a bad way either. It works for me, is within my ability, and will certainly give me several years of use without trouble. I don't see any reason to worry about what 4 owners from now will have to deal with. I mean seriously, not to sound like a d_ck, but that's not my concern at this point and it won't be my problem. My problem is getting my bus in useable condition within my lifetime so I can enjoy it. As for the liquid nail: I knew I would get a lashing from some here and even said so in my original post, so I am not surprised. I personally think it is perfectly acceptable. It will be painted over as well, so any cracking issues will become visible. The factory seam sealer is really no different from liquid nail, it bonds and hardens the same. I'm not pumping tubes of the stuff into cavities like some hack, just covering seams that will not be seen for the sole purpose of keeping water out of getting in between the metal patches. Hope that help.
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RatCamper
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll tell you straight out what my issues with putting metal over metal are. it's not meant as a criticism. It's just simply why the idea makes me uncomfortable.
First, I don't actually care how it looks. that's not an issue. What does bother me are things like metal composition differences.

Assuming you have removed / treated all the rust on the old metal and then painted it, it should be protected. But what happens when you weld another piece of metal over it? It burns some of the primer or paint off making small exposed areas. On its own that would take an eternity to rust. but then other factors come into play. if any moisture finds its way over to sandwiched layers of metal, it will get in there and the capillary effect will hold it there. Unless the patch metal came off the same line at the same time as the original it is guaranteed its chemical composition is different. This can set up electrolysis between the metal and seriously promote corrosion. It's also one of the reasons welds seem to rust faster.
Those are my reasons.

I understand the need to just get it to drivable. I'm in the same boat. Well,a actually my boat was torpedoed and sank and it's more of a salvage mission. A-hole sellers, ACVW mechanics included love selling bad parts as good. What started off as a dropped valve seat which caused minimal damage because of the way it failed, became a massively compounded issue. 7 years and many more A-holes later I'm in roughly the same place I was then. The metal work issues I have I can and will fix on my own. I can make a patch. I can't make a head or a piston though.
My type 4 is now sitting on a pallet in the garage after I pulled it out one last time rather violently. Talk about satisfying. unfortunately the replacement motor also had unmentioned problems. if it doesn't pass inspection it's getting shelved and $350 wrecker motor will go in.

What is it like for inspections there? Do they get upset about metal quality? I know here any visible rust is a fail. Technically any tears in the upholstery anywhere is too but I think that is just one of those laws put there to allow selective bullying rather than a normal one. Far more is inspected than that but I'm just saying that make sure everything you are doing is compliant because backtracking is a huge PITA.
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Joey
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of us has done a hack job one way or the other. Me, I used fiber glass instead of welding to fix a few small holes in the cargo floor of my '79 panel. But it's my winter beater and it only has a few years left before it's too rusty and not safe for the road. VDubTech used barn door hinges to fix his sliding door on that rusty brown bus of his - that still cracks me up! But, for restoring a vehicle that you plan on keeping for a long time I would do it properly the first time so you won't be doing the same repair a few years later. I learned a long time ago that if I need something to fix my vehicle I go to an automotive store and not Home Depot.

Also, I try to stay away from overlapping metal on a repair - it's a moisture trap.

I just bought a cartridge of seam sealer this afternoon at NAPA. It cost me $9.76 taxes in.

We're all just trying to help.
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TheRealMacGyver
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RatCamper wrote:

What is it like for inspections there?


I almost feel bad telling you this, but we don't have inspections where I live. Some of the counties in Florida that are metro areas have emissions inspections, but Florida does not have annual vehicle inspections. Some states do, not sure which ones, other than I know NY does, but they do things different up north! (at least that's what they always say!) Laughing

Sorry to hear that you have to go through that, it sounds like a PITA.

On the rust issue, I understand what you are saying and believe me I spent some serious time thinking about the whole thing. I just had to compromise with myself and stop thinking and start doing. I don't see myself keeping this forever, but then again you never know. It's my first one so who knows. Right now I just want to get it done.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRealMacGyver wrote:
Right now I just want to get it done.


I understand this but it doesn't take much more time to do it right the first time. However, it'll take close to twice as long to do it all again later.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joey wrote:
TheRealMacGyver wrote:
Right now I just want to get it done.


I understand this but it doesn't take much more time to do it right the first time. However, it'll take close to twice as long to do it all again later.



Oh, I promise you right now, I will NOT be doing this again! I will sell it before it gets that bad! Or if I really like it enough, I'll swap out my numbers and go get a Mexican bus that's brand new! (not sure if you can do that with the buses, but I know you can with bugs). Remember I said "on a budget"? This isn't going to be showroom and I am okay with that.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get some POR15 and run it over the overlapped metal with the liquid nails. It will stop corrosion and seal any potential moisture gap.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it makes you feel any better I was just cutting rust out of the underside of the drivers step with tin snips. Fun thing is there is a repair welded over the top. I've always known about this rust but the previous lack of repair panels stopped me from doing anything about it. IIRC there are repop steps now aren't there? Anyway I cut away the bottom "skin" and on some reflection think I will weld a bit of metal over the hole. Probably a bit of fridge metal. Then I'll put a hole in it to stop water pooling inside. Seems semi pointless really. What I should do is cut away the old metal up to the patch but I don't want to draw attention to it so a small patch on the underside of the original metal is probably the way to go. Well, by small I mean about finger length and width.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i thought tin snips went out with split window busses Shocked .....your really old school...Ask santa for a mini grinder with a 4 1/2 inch cutting wheel.Then watch reruns of orange county choppers for lessons on how to use for metal work.....or......do it your way;it's your bus Cool .....
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grandpa pete wrote:
i thought tin snips went out with split window busses Shocked .....your really old school...Ask santa for a mini grinder with a 4 1/2 inch cutting wheel.Then watch reruns of orange county choppers for lessons on how to use for metal work.....or......do it your way;it's your bus Cool .....


I still use a hand drill for stuff too so what's your point? Wink I wanted to leave the patch panel undisturbed because it's made from VW steel. I know because I cut it about 12 years ago out of a beetle door at the ACVW mechanic using a pair of tin snips and fashioned it including the compound curve at the front using a couple of pairs of pliers. Quite a story behind it but this is the crux. I took my bay to someone in the same town as my ACVW mechanic for inspection so I could take it to him for failed items as opposed to a standard mech.
It failed on a few things including a rust spot on the drivers step. The booking at the inspection place had been screwed up so I had to plead to the inspector to do it or I couldn't legally go home.
headed over to my mechanic to get what I needed etc. and talked to him about the step. He told me to do what I did, and he had to weld it in because his metalwork person had gone home.
So reinspection it passed. I think I drove it home semi-legally with the inspection report because it was too late and headed to a nearby town the next day to fork over the $700 odd to legally drive it again. (CTP insurance, registration and road tax) which always stings. Especially because I was a student and about $1500 in repairs had been spent on it in the last couple of weeks.

This one is to TheRealMacGyver. I sincerely hope you get your bus on the road cheaply and that no surprises pop up. Costs surrounding my bus would have hit around 10k and it still looks like crap, is fundamentally worthless and hasn't been registered in maybe six years.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

florida registration is $32;there is no inspection and limited use antique insurance on the second vehicle ( $5000.00 coverage including fire theft and collision ) Shocked is $39.00 per year Shocked thought that would brighten your day Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grandpa pete wrote:
florida registration is $32;there is no inspection and limited use antique insurance on the second vehicle ( $5000.00 coverage including fire theft and collision ) Shocked is $39.00 per year Shocked thought that would brighten your day Cool


Actually I forgot, they ended emissions several years ago didn't they? Plus I think we would be exempt anyhow due to model year.

Glad we aren't in Australia Laughing
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRealMacGyver wrote:
grandpa pete wrote:
florida registration is $32;there is no inspection and limited use antique insurance on the second vehicle ( $5000.00 coverage including fire theft and collision ) Shocked is $39.00 per year Shocked thought that would brighten your day Cool


Actually I forgot, they ended emissions several years ago didn't they? Plus I think we would be exempt anyhow due to model year.

Glad we aren't in Australia Laughing


Sounds like you get a pretty sweet deal there. just for fun I just got an insurance quote for my DD ford sedan. A bit over $400 / year. So if I were to add the ~$450 CTP, let's say $300 for registration and taxes and about $35 for inspection we are well over $1000. unfortunately I went looking for quotes on my bay and they make our DD look cheap.

We have a saying here you probably have it there too, that cars will keep you broke.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRealMacGyver wrote:
grandpa pete wrote:
florida registration is $32;there is no inspection and limited use antique insurance on the second vehicle ( $5000.00 coverage including fire theft and collision ) Shocked is $39.00 per year Shocked thought that would brighten your day Cool


Actually I forgot, they ended emissions several years ago didn't they? Plus I think we would be exempt anyhow due to model year.

Glad we aren't in Australia Laughing


exactly why I like florida Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an update, been busy working and haven't been busy updating!

I had this lower window rot that I've been scratching my head about:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

So I decided to cut a slit from the inside that I could slide a 16 gauge piece of metal into:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Then I slid a piece of metal in:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And welded it
I will have to figure out what happened to this picture and post it later, but basically once I had the metal inserted in there I welded it in place, then cut the excess off and ground it down and I will use bondo-glass to finish it off, then primer and paint. Have to get some other pictures up and posted for more updates. (been trying to use the better camera, but it requires extra steps that the iphone doesn't! - so I hope these pictures are better)
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That could work. I did the crazy thing and reconstructed the lot by lots of welding and grinding in multiple waves. I hate to think what it looks like from the underside Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kind of bumming that I didn't get a picture of my weld, but this is the end result. I have to do the same thing on the other side so I will get pictures then. I'm pretty happy with how it worked doing it this way and I won't have to wonder if the window will fit either.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I will tackle this soon
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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